Characteristics of a Circumnavigating Cat

[Tropic Cat]

Originally Posted by BigCat

Most of those junk rigged catamarans have made ocean crossings-What did you have in mind, rounding Cape Horn?

Most of which Junk rigged cats? Exactly which production boat is offered with a Junk rig?

I'd like to point out with the best of intentions that you've been both very articulate and persisitant in offering your preferences in sailing rigs. We all get it ... we got it in your first 40 posts...

This thread is about what the fella asking the questions preferences are..

[Stella Polaris]

Originally Posted by schoonerdog

... then the designer purposely built the boat with a lot of reserve bouyancy for both handling in large waves and to offset the potential danger of collision by providing a floatation chamber to both stop the ingress of water in a more likely front end collision and to also prevent the entire hull from sinking should a midship collision occur ... Reserve bouyancy aft is also important in the transoms, but is always much harder to design in and typically is much smaller. A catamaran with large amount of reserve bouyancy forward will also probably be a lighter and better handling boat.

The reserve buoyancy point is something I've only recently opened my eyes to. I completely agree that it's something that I should focus on, both from a safety and a performance point of view. The PDQ 44 sounds amazing, but both it and the PDQ 42 are unfortunately outside my budget-range.

[Stella Polaris]

Hi Brad.

Thank you for your input. I'm going to try to explain how my stance on boats have altered since I started this thread. Much of it is in line with what you're saying.

Originally Posted by Southern Star

I have some concerns over the emphasis you are placing on visibility from the interior, keels and a 'galley-up' design in a boat that is intended to be sailed offshore.

Visibility
Visibility from inside is something I still find as important as when I started. I've discussed earlier why I think it is important, but the key reasons are safety and that you can look out when you're sitting inside. I agree that they might be of limited use in big seas, but to me it's still a comfort to be able to look forward when you're inside withou having to stand up. You mention the Privilege in particular. I think they are beautiful, solid, safe and proven designs for water sailing">blue water sailing and circumnavigating, but not for me, for three reasons: 1. The windows on the Privileges I saw in Florida (39, 395 and 465) were huge, but you had to stand up to look forward. All of these were also very warm inside because of the big window surfaces. 2. I don't like the forward berth in the nacelle. 3. It is a rock solid boat, but the sailing performance is not quite what I'm looking for (I want a faster boat).

Galley-up
I completely agree about all your reasons for a galley down, but this is one decision that's out of my hands. My girlfriend has the final say and she wants the galley-up. I've told her why I would like a galley down (and I really do), but when she says the opposite, I can't force her to change her mind.
She did like the Seawind 1160 galley, but that's the only one so far. The PDQ 44 has a fantastic galley down, but the pricetag for the boat puts it ... out of reach. (She hasn't seen the St. Francis 44's galley down, so I'm hoping that it will help her "see the light".)

Dagger boards
I have changed my view about dagger-boards as well. I think both the Outremers and the Catanas have good solutions that I would really enjoy to sail with. The problem is that few production cats have dagger-boards and those that do tend to be more expensive. A Catana is too expensive and the Outremers are very spartan (and also too expensive unless I get an old one).

Originally Posted by Southern Star

In sum, if you are truly looking for offshore capability, you may want to re-prioritize your list.

I am working on a re prioritized list. The names on the list is: Outremer, Catana , St. Francis and Manta. The first two I doubt I can afford, but they are still on my list. The latter two I can afford and I'm gathering all the information I can about them.
I will without a question buy a used boat, both because of price, but also because of the equipment I'll get with it. Like you said, the above mentioned boats should at least have some of the necessary equipment for a circumnavigation.

Saildrives
I agree with your reasoning and won't pass over a cat with a saildrive if that's the only thing on my list with a small minus.

Engine Placement
You have many good reasons that I agree with. I was particularly impressed with the engine access on the Manta. Again I'm no longer as rigid when it comes to outside access, because I think inside will work just as well ... in many cases maybe even better. I think it's a point you'll see dropped from my list, as I no longer have a strong preference for either. The key for me now is accessibility. As long as I have good access to all parts of the engine, I don't care if I'm inside or outside.

Fractional rig vs. Masthead rig
I hear your points, but I still prefer a fractional rig for performance reasons.
I will never rely on any electrical winches to do any work for me, so that's not a "failure" or "electrical drain" point to consider.

Thank you for your thoughts and input.

[Stella Polaris]

Originally Posted by 2Hulls

Even my Admiral prefers them and we wish we had this arrangement. Oh well.

Besides any other advantages, it's a sure sign you didn't get a charter cat AND it's a good excuse to keep a cooler in the cockpit.

Dave

My Admiral is unfortunately of the opposite opinion ... I might still talk her into a cooler in the cockpit though ... even if the galley is only 3 steps away.

[Stella Polaris]

Originally Posted by 2Hulls

If after reading the other topic you have more questions, I'll be happy to offer my views.

Hi Dave,

You actually answered all of my questions in the other thread about the helm position. Thank you. ... Carrying a spare sure helps ...

The other question you no doubt get is concerning the daggerboards. Naturally I'm curious about them as well. I used to be negative, but now I'm positive to daggerboards. How do you find that they enhance your sailing?

[Whimsical]

Originally Posted by schoonerdog

I've said it before, but to me the litmus tests for a circumnavigating cat is to walk forward in the hulls and look at the space utilization in the forward bows. If it's large and kept behind a water tight bulkhead with maybe an access panel on the top portion of it, then the designer purposely built the boat with a lot of reserve bouyancy for both handling in large waves and to offset the potential danger of collision by providing a floatation chamber to both stop the ingress of water in a more likely front end collision and to also prevent the entire hull from sinking should a midship collision occur. Some boats have huge 8 ft sections with lots reserve bouyancy. Other catamarans use this space to put in larger accomodations either through having a head sitting right up in the bow or having extra births and are geared more toward comfort at dock and at anchor or simply more accomodation room for more charter guests. Reserve bouyancy aft is also important in the transoms, but is always much harder to design in and typically is much smaller.

Couldn't agree more but I would also add that the sole of the hulls be above the outer hull forming a series of water tight compartments. If some are breached during a grounding or somesuch there is still a sealed sole to prevent further ingress of water. This was a major factor in me choosing a Schionning design over others. The Wilderness has 20 compartments in each hull as well as every other feature you list except for the watertight doors.

Mike

[2Hulls]

Originally Posted by SettingSail2009

The other question you no doubt get is concerning the daggerboards. Naturally I'm curious about them as well. I used to be negative, but now I'm positive to daggerboards. How do you find that they enhance your sailing?

- because I like to sail upwind.

I grew up sailing and racing small dinks and cats and I really like clawing to weather. I love to sail acquaintence's superbly weatherly monos. When I concluded my cruising boat was going to be a cat (less weatherly than a mono), and recognizing that I would never be satisfied without a real sailing machine that would go to weather and talk to me doing it, my priority became acquiring a cat with daggerboards. This is another reason I like the dual outboard helms - I can have an unobstructive view of the puffs and headers upwind and feel them on my face.

So, in the sailing vessel compromise market, I placed more "value" on sailing upwaind over the competing real advantages of minikeels. For someone who hates going to weather or didn't grow up honing weatherly skills, daggerboards may not have any value whatsoever and might actually represent a deficit.

Good luck in your search.

Dave

[ssullivan]

While we're on the topic of seaworthy and higher lattitudes:

I'm looking at an old Prout Snowgoose 35. Why? It's really the only boat in my price range (LOW!!) that seems to have some reputation for circumnavigations.

Question: Why do some on here suggest a steel mono or not to take a catamaran into norther climates?

I ask because I am located fairly close to the Bay of Fundy (CA/USA border) and plan to cruise up here locally, over to Nova Scotia and on up until ice becomes an issue. I would like to take this northern route across to Europe at some point in a few years when we can cast off, but would also like to then take this cat to the Med, over to the Caribbean thru the canal and out to the Pacific.

Why wouldn't this be a good idea? Why is a cat no intented for higher latitudes? Is it the fears I keep having about them not being safe in the really crazy stuff, or comfortable in the rough stuff? I'm just not understanding the reason a cat is any different in high latts than it is in the tradewinds. Can anyone enlighten me?

[2Hulls]

Originally Posted by ssullivan

Why is a cat no intented for higher latitudes?

Who says?

The boats are usually more capable than the skippers................

[ssullivan]

Originally Posted by 2Hulls

Who says?

The boats are usually more capable than the skippers................

That's what I figured as well. Your picture really appealed to me.

I just saw some postings back in this thread (a couple of them) suggesting that cats weren't suited to higher lattitudes. I couldn't figure out why this was suggested.

[schoonerdog]

Steel is the choice material for those who insist on bumping into things. Catamarans are a great choice for high lattitudes if specifically designed because the only boat to sail the northwest passage above north america is, you guessed it, a catamaran, custom built with special bows to be able to be lifted up and over ice.

[ssullivan]

Originally Posted by schoonerdog

Steel is the choice material for those who insist on bumping into things. Catamarans are a great choice for high lattitudes if specifically designed because the only boat to sail the northwest passage above north america is, you guessed it, a catamaran, custom built with special bows to be able to be lifted up and over ice.

That's pretty neat to have bows which can be lifted up over ice. I saw a big sheet a couple days ago and was thinking it would be a great way to do some bottom work if you could winch a cat up onto it.

I also have seen a lot of wooden boats that are actively used as high lat cruisers. Obvious plusses:

*No worms up here
*No (or less) condensation on the inside of the hull when the temps get low
*Running into things? Well... no so great on that.

[GordMay]

Who says Cats aren't suited to high latitudes?

[scotte]

My wife was adamant about having galley up for a long time, but made a concession when we got our Privilege with galley down - now having lived aboard for awhile she's totally OK with it and I think even glad we made the decision for galley down. Especially since it meant way more storage area than the other boats we were looking at in our range.

[Southern Star]

Andreas, the Catanas in your price range (as I recall the earlier 385 and 435 are the model names) don't really have forward visibility from the settee, although otherwise meet your criteria and are legitimate circumnavigators. The earlier Outremers - well lets just say that while they are quite capable of circumnavigating and perform extremely well, have a 'galley up' that is akin to what you would find in a 25 foot monohull. Not likely to impress your girlfriend (or any other sea cook).

If you are considering the Manta, which was not really intended for circumnavigating, then why not Fountain Pajots? They meet your requirements in terms of forward visibility, a galley up and will be considerably quicker than the Manta. No, they weren't really intended for circumnavigations either, but they have higher bridgedeck clearance than the Manta and seem to be constructed quite well despite the modest displacement. I would suggest that you read some of the postings on FP's that are now doing some blue-water sailing.

Brad