Catamaran tacking angles , really that bad???

[sailjumanji]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

Who said Lagoons can't sail? Attachment 239307
(Code0 + Main)

Stupid question. Why is VMG negative?

[CatNewBee]

Originally Posted by sailjumanji

Stupid question. Why is VMG negative?

Because I'm reaching / going downwind.

TWA is almost 120 degree (from behind), 12kn - but because of the boat speed, the AWA is 076 degree so slightly upwind apparent,

AWS 11.5kn (the wind that fills the sails), Speed through the water 9.9kn and SOG 8.4kn, means I have a current to fight with of 1.5kn against me .

[NevilleCat]

Well I'll admit to being impressed.
For something that comfortable and able to carry a houseload that is a great result.
I love the way the general sailing consensus over the past 20 years has gone from "oh but they are fast though" to "well they're roomy but they can't sail".
Sure, tacking angles are going to be catamaran's nemesis, but that is true of any boat quick enough to drag the apparent wind so forward.
To me speed isn't the most important thing in the cat/mono debate but simply the ease of functioning aboard underway; cooking, sleeping, using the head etc...the daily living that seems just so much easier than when you are heeled or rolling. I forget how difficult and exhausting it can be until I get back in a mono after being on a cat.
The ones I've sailed have had a great motion in a seaway (except, perhaps hard into a short chop when a weighty mono is probably what you need). The motion I find just logical, I understand not everyone feels that way.
I will admit to never having been on any of the French cats though; only Seawind cats from varying generations and sizes.

[sailjumanji]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

Because I'm reaching / going downwind.

TWA is almost 120 degree (from behind), 12kn - but because of the boat speed, the AWA is 076 degree so slightly upwind apparent,

AWS 11.5kn (the wind that fills the sails), Speed through the water 9.9kn and SOG 8.4kn, means I have a current to fight with of 1.5kn against me .

Hmmm, so we've transformed this thread to jibing angles instead.

[NevilleCat]

...well technically the AWA is 76 degrees...

[Alistair242]

Originally Posted by sailjumanji

Hmmm, so we've transformed this thread to jibing angles instead.

More interesting than tacking angles I reckon. Not many cruising sailors plan to do more than a tiny fraction of their passage making hard on the wind if they can help it, mono or catamaran.

I’d say that modern cat tacking angles are really not that bad, particularly those with self tacking jibs. Some are comparable to cruising monohulls. It’s at 40 degrees plus off the wind where they really shine, and as NevilleCat points out, in their ability to offer a very safe, liveable ride or motion day in and out.

[sailjumanji]

Originally Posted by Alistair242

More interesting than tacking angles I reckon. Not many cruising sailors plan to do more than a tiny fraction of their passage making hard on the wind if they can help it, mono or catamaran.



I’d say that modern cat tacking angles are really not that bad, particularly those with self tacking jibs. Some are comparable to cruising monohulls. It’s at 40 degrees plus off the wind where they really shine, and as NevilleCat points out, in their ability to offer a very safe, liveable ride or motion day in and out.

Our route from house to open Gulf includes a section of ship channel heading SE into a predominant SE wind. If we can hold 30 deg AWA - which we can even on autopilot - we can make the 5 nm with maybe only one tack. The other condomarans can be seen with sails down motoring along this stretch.

I disagree with the tiny fraction. So many times we find our destination is slightly cracked off upwind. In the Bahamas 2019, we befriended a cat (I wont name manufacture) whose best angle upwind was maybe 42-45 deg AWA. They motored everywhere; we sailed. We spent a lot of time with them trying to improve performance via sail trim, sheeting angles, etc. Just wasnt going to happen. Sad every day we would leave together headed for next anchorage, and they'd try to sail it, but eventually start the motors when we were almost out of sight. A couple months later when we left them, they were scanning Yachtworld for a better sailing boat. To replace the one they just purchased a couple months before. And this couple raced dinghys before their cruising foray, so werent novice.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Well, that pic caught you at a very nice speed. Would I be right in guessing that it was a brief moment, showing the best you achieved that day, and not representative of the average speeds?

Perhaps not, but I doubt if anyone has ever posted a picture of instruments taken during a slow spell!

We've seen a few fleeting periods of 15+ knots in our mono, and that would have made a great photo...but high 9s and low 10s are t he best we've ever done for sustained periods... and those under really good conditions and with the tanks pretty empty. Emptying all the lockers would likely help these numbers even further, but it is a live aboard long term cruising boat, after all! Our passage speeds tend to average about 7 knots and we don't motor much at sea... and we're two old farts who no longer trim for speed all the time!

So, my point is that these pix don't prove much to me. I have no personal experience to judge whether Lagoons or any other condo style cats can outsail more performance oriented vessels, but it is very hard to believe that fatter hulls with lower SA to D ratios can ever be quicker than their slim hulled and bigger rigged sisters. Nothing that has been posted here has changed that perception for me.

And it doesn't make any difference anyhow! You all seem to be happy with your boats and their performance. What does it matter if one is a bit faster than the other? They are all faster than many cruisers can ever hope to be, and none are faster than their bigger sisters.

Jim

all good but I strongly doubt your boat can reach 9.9kn speed in 11.5 kn apparent wind like L 400 can, in any combination of events.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by sailjumanji

Our route from house to open Gulf includes a section of ship channel heading SE into a predominant SE wind. If we can hold 30 deg AWA - which we can even on autopilot - we can make the 5 nm with maybe only one tack. The other condomarans can be seen with sails down motoring along this stretch.

I disagree with the tiny fraction. So many times we find our destination is slightly cracked off upwind. In the Bahamas 2019, we befriended a cat (I wont name manufacture) whose best angle upwind was maybe 42-45 deg AWA. They motored everywhere; we sailed. We spent a lot of time with them trying to improve performance via sail trim, sheeting angles, etc. Just wasnt going to happen. Sad every day we would leave together headed for next anchorage, and they'd try to sail it, but eventually start the motors when we were almost out of sight. A couple months later when we left them, they were scanning Yachtworld for a better sailing boat. To replace the one they just purchased a couple months before. And this couple raced dinghys before their cruising foray, so werent novice.

yes bad tacking angles are annoying in such situations, we also had similar experience, seeing other boats (cats or monos) motoring when we happily sailed upwind. But for ocean crossings one worries about DDW and reaching performance as this is 90% of time. Yet to see someone that is looking for upwind passage.

[smj]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

all good but I strongly doubt your boat can reach 9.9kn speed in 11.5 kn apparent wind like L 400 can, in any combination of events.

Please post the video of the Lagoon 400 making 9.9 kt sustained in 11.5 apparent wind.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by smj

Please post the video of the Lagoon 400 making 9.9 kt sustained in 11.5 apparent wind.

see CNB pic above. That is exactly what was recorded. STW means speed thru water. They had 1.5 kn current against.

[smj]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

see CNB pic above. That is exactly what was recorded. STW means speed thru water. They had 1.5 kn current against.

Must’ve been surfing a big wave.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

all good but I strongly doubt your boat can reach 9.9kn speed in 11.5 kn apparent wind like L 400 can, in any combination of events.

Well gosh, I doubt it too, but mate, I didn't make any such claim. Those speeds were obtained beam (+/-) reaching in 25+ knots true and with only main and genoa in use.

And of course I'd never hope to compete with a supernatural vessel...

JIm

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

yes bad tacking angles are annoying in such situations, we also had similar experience, seeing other boats (cats or monos) motoring when we happily sailed upwind. But for ocean crossings one worries about DDW and reaching performance as this is 90% of time. Yet to see someone that is looking for upwind passage.

of course as faster cats and monos would be making 4 kn VMG give or take we do 3 kn VMG in 10 kn true. But it is pretty enjoyable, surprised guests that expected we will motor as they read too much CF.

[FlyingScot]

No videos = no reliable results. Too many ways to cherry pick data.
As far as tacking less than 90 degrees, a simple screenshot shows nothing without video. Turn the drawing upside down or say you were going the opposite direction and it looks great. No scale of the map. No one else to verify results.
Even videos can be misleading if the instruments are off. You really need videos of both tacks, sea state, etc.

And who sails in flat seas and 9-10kts of wind? It's never like that where we sail. Maybe some special places in the world it's like that. In the Caribbean its 15-25kts and 1-3m seas virtually all the time.

As it has been pointed out, going slow makes for tighter tacks.
Going faster makes for wider tacking angles. No way around that.

It's plainly obvious by now some people won't back up what they say and they continue to act surprised when people don't believe them.
If your boat will do what you say, prove it. If you won't prove it, please stop with the nonsense.

I've sailed on one L400 and admittedly it was a little worn out, but barely anything on board, so lightly loaded. It would barely go upwind at all. Let alone 3-4kts VMG.