allures c 47,9

[Polux]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

You must be aware the old and the new Garcia have nothing in common except the name.

I have seen one of the new Garcias up close (outside, not inside). I did not like very many things. I would not buy one at all (not that I can afford one).

I have seen old Garcias during our big trip. They were quite a different thing back then - not sure who made those but they were on par with Dutch metal boat building.

These are the times we are living in though. Unless one gets a custom thing from (Hoek?) we have to do with boats built to the standards that please most of us these days.

I am looking forward to seeing any of them down here - maybe not this year, but possibly with the 2019 ARC.

I think an alloy, or an alloy composite cat, is THE ultimate cruising toy.

Cheers,
b.

Garcia is the same shipyard and I believe the boats are still made on the same place even if they now belong to the same groupe of Allures and Outremer. What changed was the design. I believe you talk about 30 year old boats that were made approximately in what regards engineering design, kind of an amateurish approach.

Now they use top designers and top engineers and due to a much more sophisticated evaluations of forces are able to do strong but much more light boats that sail much better. Garcia is a top brand with top quality being it on their line of fast big yachts or on the line of stronger voyage boats pointed to high latitude sailing.

it suffices to say that when Cornell wanted a boat for is 4? or 5? circumnavigation (this one on high latitudes) that's Garcia he chose to build his new boat (the previous one was made on an OVNI). The old Garcias looked a bit agricultural, the new ones look very well but that has just to do with better design

Regarding Allures and the method of mixed materials that is what they used on all their boats in a very successful way (Hull in aluminium, deck and cabin in infusion sandwich) it has the advantage to lower substantially the boat CG and to allow for lighter and better sailingboats.

An all aluminium boat is a stronger boat but personally, not being interested in sailing in the arctic or antarctic, I would prefer the solution allures use in what regards materials and the advantages they provide.

Allures is making boats for several decades now and I never heard of any problem in what regards water intrusion on the junction between deck and aluminium. Note that contrary to fiberglass boats that junction has a very large contact surface.

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by Polux

Note that contrary to fiberglass boats that junction has a very large contact surface.

The amount of aluminium deck varies with the different Allure models. The overlap of contact area of the glued hull to deck joint only covers a small area of the deck shown in your photo. This is an alternative model with a smaller area of aluminium deck. The contact surface will be similar in both cases.




The joint between the aluminium and fibreglass is similar to the hull to deck joint seen on most fibreglass yachts. It is not a bad solution, but loses the advantage seen in an all aluminium yacht where the hull and deck plates are welded and become one homogenous structure.

The Allures models still retain a lot of the advantages of an all aluminium boat at a very attractive price. They are worth considering.

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by Polux

Garcia is the same shipyard and I believe the boats are still made on the same place even if they now belong to the same groupe of Allures and Outremer. What changed was the design. I believe you talk about 30 year old boats that were made approximately in what regards engineering design, kind of an amateurish approach.

Now they use top designers and top engineers and due to a much more sophisticated evaluations of forces are able to do strong but much more light boats that sail much better. Garcia is a top brand with top quality being it on their line of fast big yachts or on the line of stronger voyage boats pointed to high latitude sailing.

(...)

You are contradictory, PLS re-read what you have just said.

"Garcia is the same shipyard (...) I believe you talk about 30 year old boats that were made approximately in what regards engineering design, kind of an amateurish approach."

vs.

"Now they use top designers and top engineers and due to a much more sophisticated evaluations of forces are able to do strong but much more light boats that sail much better."

So the boatyard is the same but the engineers are not? And their evaluations are more sophisticated? The old ones were not sophisticated enough? What exactly was wrong with the old evaluations? I failed to notice.

The boatyard IS the people, NOT the welding equipment. Garcia today are all new people, not the welders & outfitters, nor the designers and engineers of the old boats. We sure agree on this. We simply draw different conclusions.

As for the old Garcias "...made approximately in what regards engineering design, kind of an amateurish approach" I am posting some images of old Garcias.

BTW we are in the wrong thread. We may opt to move.

Cheers,
b.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

You are contradictory, PLS re-read what you have just said.

"Garcia is the same shipyard (...) I believe you talk about 30 year old boats that were made approximately in what regards engineering design, kind of an amateurish approach."

vs.

"Now they use top designers and top engineers and due to a much more sophisticated evaluations of forces are able to do strong but much more light boats that sail much better."

So the boatyard is the same but the engineers are not? And their evaluations are more sophisticated? The old ones were not sophisticated enough? What exactly was wrong with the old evaluations? I failed to notice.

The boatyard IS the people, NOT the welding equipment. Garcia today are all new people, not the welders & outfitters, nor the designers and engineers of the old boats. We sure agree on this. We simply draw different conclusions.

As for the old Garcias "...made approximately in what regards engineering design, kind of an amateurish approach" I am posting some images of old Garcias.

BTW we are in the wrong thread. We may opt to move.

Cheers,
b.

No, no contradiction. Obviously in 30 years people is changing but there was not a sudden change of direction or change of the people that work on the shipyard. Two years ago I had a long talk about the Garcia explorer with one of the project managers, he was working on the company for more than 20 years and that is the general status: Old shipyard that has maintained a continuity.

That does not mean that they are designing and building now boats as they built 30 years ago. That would mean that they had not learned anything and had not evolved. Quite the contrary, Garcia had followed boat building engineering and design and make up to date boats. That is why you find today models very different from 30 year old models. They are better boats today.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

..
As for the old Garcias "...made approximately in what regards engineering design, kind of an amateurish approach" I am posting some images of old Garcias.

BTW we are in the wrong thread. We may opt to move.

Cheers,
b.

I had very weak internet and could not find the post. The Garcia you posted are Garcia from the new generation not the 30 year old boats that I thought you were talking about (they make several types of boats now).

At the beginning, 30 years ago what they built was this type of boats:


The modern Garcia from the same type (Cornell's boat) are these ones:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpC77noHa9Q

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKfhkghkty8

The difference is big. The new one has not only a better stability as also a much more comfortable interior as it sails better too.

Cheers

[Polux]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

The amount of aluminium deck varies with the different Allure models. The overlap of contact area of the glued hull to deck joint only covers a small area of the deck shown in your photo. This is an alternative model with a smaller area of aluminium deck. The contact surface will be similar in both cases.
....
The joint between the aluminium and fibreglass is similar to the hull to deck joint seen on most fibreglass yachts. It is not a bad solution, but loses the advantage seen in an all aluminium yacht where the hull and deck plates are welded and become one homogenous structure.

The Allures models still retain a lot of the advantages of an all aluminium boat at a very attractive price. They are worth considering.

They are also lighter faster and with a better stability then many similar typed boats. Regarding the way the deck is connected with the hull even in what regards fiberglass boats each case is a case. In some the linkage is very solid and well done others not so much.

Regarding Allures the scantling for the deck joint is 10, meaning that it is designed to withstand 10 times the biggest force that theoretically will be exercised there:

The composite superstructure/aluminium deck bondage is performed horizontally according to a sealing and riveted method.
...
"The safety ratio of the bonding reaches as high as 10, i.e. this bonding is calculated to undergo a level of stress ten times superior to the maximum level of stress the yacht will actually have to bear.
Tests on samples have proved that, thanks to both the materials selected and the geometry of the bonding, the dilatations due to variations of temperature are minimal - the more so since the expansion coefficients of aluminium (21) and the composite (17) can compare.
Finally, we have selected an adhesive which polymerises in a damp atmosphere. Not only do the mechanical properties not suffer any alteration when exposed to the sea but improve as they age.
Our research brought us an ANVAR award. Our process is patent-protected."

I agree that a all aluminium boat with the deck welded to the hull will have the advantages you mentioned but it has also disadvantages:

"Composite superstructures on an aluminium hull offer a number of advantages when compared to aluminium superstructures:
- lighter topsides;
- improved temperature insulation;
- better phonic insulation;
- elimination of any hazard of electrolysis due to rustproof topsides;"
...
and I would add, a lower CG due to the lighter topsides and cabin structure.

As many times in what regards design there is always disadvantages and advantages on both building methods and that is not a price question but a deliberated choice. Some very big and very expensive aluminium yachts use (for the same reasons) this composite solution, for example this beauty:

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by Polux

"Composite superstructures on an aluminium hull offer a number of advantages when compared to aluminium superstructures:
- lighter topsides;
- improved temperature insulation;
- better phonic insulation;
- elimination of any hazard of electrolysis due to rustproof topsides;"

They left out the main advantage that a fibreglass structure is cheaper to produce than an aluminium one. This is especially true for the deck, cockpit and superstructure, which if produced in aluminium require a lot of complex curved shapes to be produced from a material that starts out as a flat sheet.

There is nothing wrong with reducing costs. It is the main reason the Allures range can produce a round aluminium hulled yacht for an attractive price, but it is important not to be seduced by the marketing hype.

The other advantages claimed by Allures are very dubious in my opinion. For example, the "better temperature insulation" is a bit silly when compared to the several inches of insulation that is commonly used under an aluminium deck.

Despite all the above, I think the Allures range offer a great product at an excellent price and are well worth considering. As always, retain a reasonable degree of skepticism for those claims made by the marketing department.

[Factor]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

They left out the main advantage that a fibreglass structure is cheaper to produce than an aluminium one.

I would think that depends on the construction type, a high end composite glass system is going to cost way more than aluminium.

This is especially true for the deck, cockpit and superstructure, which if produced in aluminium require a lot of complex curved shapes to be produced from a material that starts out as a flat sheet.

That may be the case for Monos but Multis (and remember we are in a multi thread) seem to be able to utilise relatively low levels of complex shapes in aluminium. See attached photo.

The other advantages claimed by Allures are very dubious in my opinion. For example, the "better temperature insulation" is a bit silly when compared to the several inches of insulation that is commonly used under an aluminium deck.

There is absolutely no doubt that composite is way better at insulating that aluminium, way better. Thats why acres of insulation is used in aluminium boats

For the record I would own a Lizard Yachts aluminium cat or a mumby aluminium cat and I suspect an allures cat in aluminium in a heart beat. There is a point at which aluminium becomes both cost and weight effective in multihulls, and that is around 14 metres - under that they are heavier than an average composite boat, over that they can be lighter. I really really like the Mumby 48, and the have a few circumnmavs to their credit including a lot of high latitude trips.

retain a reasonable degree of skepticism for those claims made by the marketing department.

What - like this claim? Aluminium guarantees a stiff and strong ship.
Guarantees? and this claim
Thus, the metal will not be affected by corrosion
Never?

You probably recognise the builder making those claims.

[PhiSig1071]

Is that a Mumby?

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by Factor

I would think that depends on the construction type, a high end composite glass system is going to cost way more than aluminium.

Yes, agreed, but Allures do not use a high end construction made from say epoxy and carbon fibre. Nor do other production boatbuilders.

Originally Posted by Factor

That may be the case for Monos but Multis (and remember we are in a multi thread) seem to be able to utilise relatively low levels of complex shapes in aluminium. See attached photo.

Yes I think that is correct. The deck shape of cats is less complex than an equivalent monohull, so is easier to manufacturer in aluminium. I have not seen any information on the amount of fibreglass (If any) incorporated into this new Allures cat. My guess is that it will less than the monohull Allure models.

Factor, as a former Grand Large dealer have you any inside information on the construction that you can share with the forum?

Originally Posted by Factor

There is absolutely no doubt that composite is way better at insulating that aluminium, way better. Thats why acres of insulation is used in aluminium boats

Can you name a current fully aluminium cruising yacht that does not have better deck thermal or acoustic insulation than an Allures with its fibregalss deck? Most aluminium cruising yachts are significantly better in this regard, which in my view makes the claims made by Allures misleading.

Originally Posted by Factor

What - like this claim? Aluminium guarantees a stiff and strong ship.
Guarantees? and this claim
Thus, the metal will not be affected by corrosion
Never?

Yes the marketing departments of all yacht builders (and other marine equipment suppliers) make exaggerated and even fanciful claims. The more creative even try to suggest what are fundamentally cost cutting measures are "improvements". I did not mean to single out Allures in this regard. However, it is sad when consumers believe the rhetoric. Hopefully forums like this can present a more balanced viewpoint.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

They left out the main advantage that a fibreglass structure is cheaper to produce than an aluminium one. This is especially true for the deck, cockpit and superstructure, which if produced in aluminium require a lot of complex curved shapes to be produced from a material that starts out as a flat sheet.

There is nothing wrong with reducing costs. It is the main reason the Allures range can produce a round aluminium hulled yacht for an attractive price, but it is important not to be seduced by the marketing hype.

The other advantages claimed by Allures are very dubious in my opinion. For example, the "better temperature insulation" is a bit silly when compared to the several inches of insulation that is commonly used under an aluminium deck.

Despite all the above, I think the Allures range offer a great product at an excellent price and are well worth considering. As always, retain a reasonable degree of skepticism for those claims made by the marketing department.

Other top very expensive boats use this composite solution. For me the main advantage is to lower the CG, therefore needing less ballast allowing for a lighter and faster boat.

Also the possibility of more freedom in what regards cockpit design, where complex curves are dificult and expensive to be made in aluminium, it is an advantage. That extra insulation on an aluminum boat means also more weight while on a cored deck it comes naturally integrated in the building method.

I disagree the main advantage is price. The OVNI, an all aluminium boat similar to Allures is a less expensive boat.

Here you have other beautiful aluminium boats that uses GRP cored decks, or composite cockpits and cabins. They are all expensive boats...and mostly fast boats too.









In fact it is an old solution when a fast boat was the goal and many famous old racers had an aluminium hull and a composite deck, for instance Scaramouche, the 44ft Frers IOR racer that was one of the most successful race boats ever.

This was a solution used on many big fast yachts, for instance the 1981 Freers 71ft (designed for the Rothschild family) when a fast and strong boat was intended.

Nowadays is not a solution used on many fast maxi yachts simply because they are not built in aluminium anymore but in carbon, that can be as strong as the aluminium and lighter even if more expensive.

[Factor]

Originally Posted by PhiSig1071

Is that a Mumby?

Yep it is

[Polux]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

,,,
Can you name a current fully aluminium cruising yacht that does not have better deck thermal or acoustic insulation than an Allures with its fibregalss deck? Most aluminium cruising yachts are significantly better in this regard, which in my view makes the claims made by Allures misleading.
....

That is an easy one, OVNI..... and it is probably the manufacturer that has more aluminium boats on the water and by far.

[Factor]

[QUOTE=noelex 77;2392260]

Factor, as a former Grand Large dealer have you any inside information on the construction that you can share with the forum?

Not a current or former Allures or Garcia dealer. Only worked in and interested in Multis

Can you name a current fully aluminium cruising yacht that does not have better deck thermal or acoustic insulation than an Allures with its fibregalss deck? Most aluminium cruising yachts are significantly better in this regard, which in my view makes the claims made by Allures misleading.

Not the point, the point is that aluminium ( a material I love has rubbish thermal properties and its noisy as well, The fact that every aluminium boat builder whacks huge loads of insulation on sort of proves that point.

Yes the marketing departments of all yacht builders (and other marine equipment suppliers) make exaggerated and even fanciful claims. The more creative even try to suggest what are fundamentally cost cutting measures are "improvements". I did not mean to single out Allures in this regard. However, it is sad when consumers believe the rhetoric. Hopefully forums like this can present a more balanced viewpoint

.Bit harsh, and a bit generic. Lets stick to callling BS when we see it (for example the builder of your new boat saying aluminium will never corrode) rather than ascribing it to all.

Again for the record, I love large aluminium cats and would own ( a good) one without hesitation.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

The other advantages claimed by Allures are very dubious in my opinion. For example, the "better temperature insulation" is a bit silly when compared to the several inches of insulation that is commonly used under an aluminium deck.

Isn't that the point? With aluminum you NEED insulation, with composites you don't.