60 foot Catamaran for Couple?

[dc9loser]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

Chrisr gave you a bunch of caveats, which I second, especially as to finding places that can haul out a 60 ft. cat, and mast height clearances. I'll limit myself to your wife's involvement, because a 60 ft. cat is a huge boat for her to learn to handle, if she has no experience.

When you're cruising, on passages, you go watch on watch. And you need to get your sleep so that you can carry on. Until you can sleep well when she's alone on watch, you'll be sleep starved, and your decisions will show it. My personal opinion is that she should be able to do everything on the boat, safely. It may mean sizing winches for her strength. She may need a lot of helm and trimming time, till she feels confident.

It is hard for me to imagine that anyone needs more than about a 38 foot cat, I'm one of the people thinks you should choose as small a boat as will make you feel content. Our boat is bigger than we need, but we love her. However, I've been aboard a 55 ft. Outremer, and it was a well set up catamaran for ocean sailing. Many others are not, imo, throughout the size range. We learned our seamanship, such as it is (there are better folks than we out there), in relative youth, and it is a huge advantage to know all one's routines for years. If I were going to recommend school training, I'd say go for the RYA training out of Great Britain. Tough enough conditions and standards for you both to learn a lot.

Being at sea for days is not for everyone. It is a different world from what you're used to. You're planning a very large investment in a depreciating non-asset, when the whole job can be done far more efficiently and pleasantly in a 38-44 ft. cat. I hope you listen to the folks here about that.


Ann

Good Advice. I live near the school in St Petersburg. The whole family will attend classes.

My wife wants to do this more than I, and she earned the majority of our nest egg, but on the boat I have now I am singlehanded. She will always be of limited help. This is a very major concern.

I think she would be fine on doing watches and helping with dock lines? That is about it.

The plus is my now ten year old who will be 15 by then. He has been powerboating since I bought him a 15 foot center console at age 3. I plan to enroll him in sailing courses.

He is also going to be huge. He is 5'3" at age 10.

I plan on doing a bareboat next year with a big Cat, not a 60 footer though.

I'm not buying anything until then.

[Tetepare]

Theres a reason pilot training starts with simulation and prop planes, new shooters start with .22s, and everyone at race training cringes at the new guy who shows up with a corvette. And it’s not concern for the tool.

[Simi 60]

Without having read all the posts perhaps it's not about space but more load carrying ability if wanting autonomy yet still maintaining actual performance?

It's why we buckled and chose what we have now and this from an ex multihull owner and builder.

Add: Razzle Dazzle may still be for sale, ticked a lot of boxes and cheap in the 60ft cat scheme of things..

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by dc9loser

Thanks,

Valid points. Haul outs are going to be problematic for sure. Limited facilities available.

I don't see using a Marina but rarely or going to the Med ever. Some Youtubers go years on the hook. Bottom jobs can be planned out. Its the unplanned issues that make size a very real issue.

I think that Marinas are why these boats sre cheap.

Few people want to deal with a beast of a boat in tight quarters and costs soar at this size for Marina space.

Correct

Our boat was cheap to buy because the previous owner didn't use her for her intended purpose and was heamoraging cash in marina fees.

We cruise her full time as she was intended and haven't been in a marina in now our 6th year

[Fore and Aft]

Dc9 have you discussed with the wife that once she is onboard the cat any time she needs to go ashore it's going to be a dinghy ride. That's no big deal, but can be a bit of a culture shock if you are avoiding marina's all the time. The same with shore excursions. Do you just abandon the cat in an anchorage while you go visit the sites or do you stay onboard while the family tours the country?
I love all these heroes that avoid marina's but sometimes tying up and being able to just walk ashore is nice.
Personally if you have a fat enough wallet you can pay to fix any problems your likely to encounter. You could even have one professional crew onboard to assist with running the cat.
Cheers

[Snore]

Originally Posted by dc9loser

I am a Major Airline Captain. I currently run a 40 foot single screw houseboat just fine. My last sailboat was a McGregor 26X. That is the biggest sailboat I have ever run.

I can figure out how to dock a 60 foot Cat, it has two motors and bow thrusters.

My concern is those huge sails. Muscle power is inert against those forces. How reliable are those electric wenches?

And back to the maintenance costs?

The fact that you can handle a 40' single screw houseboat is good. IMHO, landing jets (hopefully) on a runway in adverse conditions is better training. Twins with a thruster makes the boat extremely maneuverable. It is important to learn that thrusters should never be the primary means of moving the bow.

Like any large piece of equipment, as boats get bigger, they have more energy. I can mess-up a docking on my Tartan 33 and use my arm to fend of a dolphin. With a big cat, it requires calmly knowing how to manipulate the engines, and then having the confidence to give a quick burst at 1800 RPM to avoid hitting the dolphin. "Figuring it out" may not be prudent. I am not selling a job here! My calendar is full enough that I don't need to.

Stating my concern differently, when you want to fly a new aircraft, does your employer say Here's a new 7X7, take it to that new airport and figure it out. There is a HUGE difference in size between what you have run, and a 60' cat. I believe in General Aviation, there is a check out procedure.

OK- that aside. The bigger cats I have run tend to have "winch farms" or clusters of winches. If one has an issue, you can route the line to another, there may be some minor chafe- but you have an option. That said, so far, I have not had an electric fail on me. Electric winches can also be operated manually.

As to muscle power. I am a fairly big guy, 6'3" 220lbs and consider myself fit. Under 10 knots I can pull the jib sheets without grinding the winch on my Tartan 33 to trim them. On cats above 40', once the sail is inflated, there is no "just give a tug". Even adding a Barber haul requires either pre-rigging or a winch.

Keeping out of trouble- the trick to moving the big boats short handed is preparation, and staying ahead of the boat. Preparation includes doing maintenance on or ahead of schedule. Mousing all the shackles, checking lines for wear and changing them early. Cats have a set reefing schedule. On my deliveries if the first reef is 17, at night we reef on the first gust of 15. During the day, we may go to 17. Overpower the boat not only stresses the rig, but when you do set the reef- it is more challenging.

Sailing big boats short-handed is not easy. I asked if your spouse/significant other/etc was a committed. The reason for that is simple- YOU alone cannot run that boat. You will need a team. As a pro when I move boats that size I have at least 2 able-bodied individuals. They need not be sailors, just fit for the engagement. If you do not have at least one person fully committed and willing to learn- it will become unsafe.

Going down to a 44 or even 50, would reduce the forces, cost and maintenance. But even at that size, having at least one other person who is bought-in is helpful.

[GreenWave]

Originally Posted by dc9loser

Look I appreciate the responses. However the vast majority are conjecture.

I have one delivery Captain that I responded to. His comment seemed to indicate a competent single hander could sail a 60 footer.

One guy claims that a 60 footer will run through a 4 million dollar nest egg in two years? Math please?

Another guy claims a 40ish foot boat will perform as well as a 60 foot boat? Please show me your math? I have an article listing all the Atlantic crossing times for Catamarans and longer in actual crossings length trumps faster near 100% of the time. 62 foot Lagoons crush 40ish foot performance Cats without breaking a sweat.

There are lots of jabs at my purported abilities. Folks sailing a boat is simple. Yeah sailing a boat perfectly is near impossible, but sailing good enough is generally good enough. I readily admit I need some "learning" but I have the ability to do that quickly.

My plans are for the South Seas, maybe New Zealand?

60 foot is for sure more seaworthy than 40.

BTW I have watched many YouTube sailors. The Wynns boat is 43 not 46. And the Ocean passage to New Zealand tore parts of the little boat off. The hugely higher freeboard of a 60 would shake off a wave that crushed their boat.

The O'Kelly's claim $3k/mo is all they need, the Wynns less than that. I have several times that amount on tap monthly above the 4 million.

I have two teen aged boys in addition to me and wife. So, no a 40ish footer is a no. A 50 footer would do OK.

I will not even consider cramping aboard a 45 foot boat. 50 foot is fine, but they cost pretty much the same as a 60 footer.

Please respond with actual experience or math or logic.

I am open to suggestions, my mind is not made up. But real info that makes sense please.

Sounds like you have all of the answers to your question. When you ask the question that you did, you are going to get an array of opinions.

[Breaking Waves]

Originally Posted by dc9loser

I plan on doing a bareboat next year with a big Cat, not a 60 footer though.

I would suggest you charter a 60'er, not a bareboat but one with a captain, and ask questions, handle the sails, dock the boat, get a hands-on experience and learn, you will then answer your own question.

Sue some few people can single hand 100'er mono-hulls and 60'er cats. I've done passages on 112's Monos and 65' cats with owners on board who were not very much help so pretty much single-handing (just not doing the cooking). But for most cruising couples those are a real handful (for sailing and for maintenance and for finding dockage and haulouts). And most cruisers would be better off with something smaller. Where you fall on that spectrum none of here can know.

Maintenance costs could vary all over the place - how much of your own work can you do, and how simple will the boat be system-wise are huge factors? One of the owners of one of the 112'ers I sail on is a truly excellent mechanic and can keep the quite complicated hydraulic system running perfectly spotlessly by himself (he previously before retirement run a business with hydraulic equipment). That boat would be almost impossible to sail if the hydraulics went down, but they never do because of his particular skill set.

It is a truism that bigger is not necessarily better for cruising boats - bigger brings several trade-offs, what your priorities are re those trade-offs we can not know.

[Stewie12]

Two generator, two water makers. A stick to break your back with. Use the KISS principle and enjoy your sailing with as little to maintain as possible.

[MIRELOS]

60 is bigger than you think; marina space....,maintenance...., replacement of sails and parts...everything will be more expensive. We have been on our Eleuthera 60 since 2011 and never thought of the difficulty of finding marinas and even more important haul out facilities.
It was a big learning curve even though we had many years of sailing experience but we manage have to think everything way ahead. It is very possible, it is very comfortable and fast passages but everything has its price.
I'm in my 70's and my wife is close behind....but we have a great crew (dog).
Enjoy your decision but if you don't have experience with big boats get it now.

[jclark500]

You will find a lot of pilots are in the sailing community. I had a similar plan as you in 2016. Had a plan to buy a 44 ft that my wife and I could handle ourselves. During the review of the contract when the company went bankrupt.

My wife found a new 50 ft boat at the Annapolis boat show. That was the first time she showed any interest in the purchase process. It was 25% more than I had budgeted, but figured it could have the potential to double my net worth (saving marriage). Some mooring balls have a 50 ft limit we ran across in the Caribbean.

In the last 4 years and nearly 15k nm it has been a proper sized boat for us. I am ATP and flew light jets so thought the transition to sailing was an easy fit. The weather and navigation part was nice to have in my tool kit, however, I sort of missed the whole current and tide concept intially. A little gel coat repair along the way and I managed to improve my dock arrival/departure. Now find I can do that easily single handed (with low winds).

Had a pro captain for some intial trips and longer passage from Chesapeake to the Bahamas and picked up some good training on the job. Still learning, but enjoying the experience. Can't speak to a 60 foot cat, but I have had crew I found online for moving longer passages. Met some good friends, a few bad experiences, but find we enjoy our privacy when it is just our familiy onboard.

Feel free to PM me and would be happy to chat offline. Cheers, Jeff

[Lav]

new to my sailing journey, not getting a new boat any time soon but i am window shopping for when the time does actually come around..... but i see the dilemma the OP is looking at.



personally speaking, im looking at a 48ft 53ft or a 62ft boat for primarily 2 adults and 2 children. Anything lower is just too cramped for long journeys/live-aboard, especially when you need the payload. (training on a 35ft cat at present)


The 48ft boat, its cheap(er), majority of marina will be able to dock and get haul out as the beam isn't that wide, polar diagrams will suggest good speeds but not as good as the bigger ones.


53ft boat, allows for a bit more space with some creature comforts, may require to be selective on what marina's that will have space for you, same issues with haul out as its wider, very good speeds.


62ft boat, basically the extra length is translated into the saloon area, hulls are roomier, large payload, condo style living, only going to be able to dock at select marina's and haul out's need to be planned well in advance. Crowded anchorage's can pose problems along with larger draft.





if costs weren't a factor what would you choose? For convenience of maintenance, getting shelter or just parking up for a while - the 48ft is perfect. While still being an ocean worthy liveaboard boat. The 63ft boat.... having that (more or less) extra 2 meters in your salon basically allows you have a condomaran life with the bells and whistles where you have friends and the extended family come over. With the 53ft i'm not convinced it would be a worthy purchase, either save the money and go for the 48ft or just go big and splurge on the 62ft. In essence if i want comforts i might as well settle on all of them or none them, not in between.



Applying a simplistic approach, to me the 62ft would imply a complete off the grid lifestyle with rare occurrences of needing to be in a marina other than planned maintenance. Needing/wanting to do regular ocean passages or round the world trips etc. With the bigger payload you have all the electronics you want or have stuff for leisure activities. As with others have said, money is no object, so in the event of needing to go to marina i would not be begrudging for having to had over large amount of cash be it a pleasure or maintenance visit.

Whereas the 48ft boat would be mainly coastal cruising with the odd ocean crossing without completely breaking the bank. However minus the payload, no bells and whistles such as dishwasher etc.



For the OP, basically i think you need to set out your requirements - the list of needs and wants. Once you have your requirements it will make it somewhat easier to find a boat, otherwise you may get a big boat thinking bigger is better but fails to do what you need/want it to fulfill. research the places where you want to go and find out if a 60ft is doable and what extra costs would be involved.

[Shrew]

Originally Posted by dc9loser

Look I appreciate the responses. However the vast majority are conjecture.

I have one delivery Captain that I responded to. His comment seemed to indicate a competent single hander could sail a 60 footer.

One guy claims that a 60 footer will run through a 4 million dollar nest egg in two years? Math please?

Another guy claims a 40ish foot boat will perform as well as a 60 foot boat? Please show me your math? I have an article listing all the Atlantic crossing times for Catamarans and longer in actual crossings length trumps faster near 100% of the time. 62 foot Lagoons crush 40ish foot performance Cats without breaking a sweat.

There are lots of jabs at my purported abilities. Folks sailing a boat is simple. Yeah sailing a boat perfectly is near impossible, but sailing good enough is generally good enough. I readily admit I need some "learning" but I have the ability to do that quickly.

My plans are for the South Seas, maybe New Zealand?

60 foot is for sure more seaworthy than 40.

BTW I have watched many YouTube sailors. The Wynns boat is 43 not 46. And the Ocean passage to New Zealand tore parts of the little boat off. The hugely higher freeboard of a 60 would shake off a wave that crushed their boat.

The O'Kelly's claim $3k/mo is all they need, the Wynns less than that. I have several times that amount on tap monthly above the 4 million.

I have two teen aged boys in addition to me and wife. So, no a 40ish footer is a no. A 50 footer would do OK.

I will not even consider cramping aboard a 45 foot boat. 50 foot is fine, but they cost pretty much the same as a 60 footer.

Please respond with actual experience or math or logic.

I am open to suggestions, my mind is not made up. But real info that makes sense please.

LOL!!! If you want a better answer, ask a better question.

In reality what you want is for people to justify the decision you've already made as a result of massive research coupled with limited experience.

[Wmkenney]

Your plan sounds great, but, I would agree with a mid 40' cat. My last boat was a Leopard 44 owners version, 3 cabin, 3 heads. Excellent cruiser, great maneuverability, plenty of storage etc. I would charter one, or similar to get a feel for it. I can relate to bridge height restrictions, but otherwise a good boat at a reasonable price. You could buy/ order, and build your boat as equipped as you desire, would be ready when your ready. Dockage and insurance is a challenge, but I am sure smaller would be appreciated over time in all aspects. Good luck!

[captlloyd]

Originally Posted by Sam Woodbridge

Is the person who started this thread a troll? The things you mention dc9loser just don’t add up. But I understand we all can be whoever we choose over the internet.

Sam

What are you talking about ? Specially what makes you think he is a troll ?