2 or 3 reef points???

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by aj676

this boat is not production so the numbers are not readily available. In addition, we have redesigned the hulls, gone from a 11 stay fixed mast to a 3 stay rotating wing mast.

A possibility to consider would be to ask a naval architect who specializes in yacht design for guidance.

[DreamCatcher37]

Offshore 3 from 13K nm of experince with a Pacific Seacraft 40 cutter monohull
3 essential offshore

Bryon
Bella Sirena

Originally Posted by aj676

We are in process of rigging our 42' catamaran (weighs approx 16,000 lbs.) and have the option to add another reef point. The design currently includes 2 reefs, each 20% of sail area. We're looking for any real experience or the pros/cons of 2 vs. 3 reefs and what percentage each reef was in those cases.

Tiny bit of backstory: We bought this boat in 2016, sailed/motored it home and have spent 5 years rebuilding it. So we really don't have a lot of experience with sailing it in any 'weather'. It was a power boat this year but is back in the water. Next year we will be a proper sailboat again.

[ftamburrano]

Previous statements were:

"If there are no plans to sail offshore, two reefs will be plenty.". But you never know whether you will never sail offshore! It may happen, sooner or later! Why limit your freedom in advance?

"The typical cruising mainsail configuration uses two reefs, that are normally placed at intervals of approximately 12% of the luff length [not sail area]."
This does not take into account the fact that wind thrust is not linear with wind speed, but exponential. If wind speed increases by 24%, and you reduce surface by 24%, you are still in much worse condition than before! Reducing sail area by 24% is totally insufficient even in coastal sailing. Moreover, local situations are rarely foreseen by wheather forecast, and you may find yourself in trouble even if you had investigated different forecasts.

"In fact, most sailors, who limit their sailing to local trips, don’t sail for extended periods in high winds. The only high wind they will see will be in localized squalls, when they will probably take the mainsail down completely."
A valid safety criterium is to be ready for any situation at any time. Not sailing in high winds for extended periods of time may be useful in choosing the type of fabric (longer lasting), but not the surface area. Even a few minutes of extreme squalls may cause a big damages. You must always be ready to quickly reduce surface. I have two manual reefs, and the third one automatic (you do everything from the cockpit!). Very useful if sailing in the Gulf of leon (sudden Mistral blowing at 50 kn!), south of Rhone valley.

"A third reef is sometimes added for offshore work, again at another 12% of luff length (36%). Few boats, however, are set up with reef hardware for three reefs. The third reef will slightly decrease the overall durability of the sail (by adding weight to the leech), and necessitate hardware changes to the boom, to allow for a third reef line."
Reducing sail area by another 12% is totally insufficient. Look at graphs plotting wind force against wind speed! A slight decrease of sail durability should not be an element of decision where safety comes first. Hardware changes are limited and easy to implement.
My final advice with my 60 years of sailing experience is to have three reefs, of which only the last one (3rd) has to be automatic (implemented while all crew members remain safe in the cockpit). First reef reduces by luff length by 12%, 2nd by another 16%, , 3rd by 22%. At the end you have a max of 50% of luff length (no sail area) , no more! The reduction must be MORE THAN proportional.

[Gmcgyvr]

Farrier F-41 cat. Launched 2017. Approx 16,000 lbs. single daggerboard.
6” mini keels 10ft. long
North Sails recommended an extremely deep second reef only on our new main.
Offshore Oregon we had to drop main in 30-35 kts. behind. Still hit 15 kts. with
wingmast only. Felt very safe.
In your case I would add 3rd. reef points at 50-65% and rig small Dyneema
line to pull in larger reef line if needed (ahead of time!)
Designer recommended first reef at 15 Kts. We reef at 12 apparent upwind.
Go out in a blow. You’ll know when to reef at different points of sail.

[JasonS]

On our 40 foot catamaran, we have 3 reefing points, but only two lines running up the boom. We have the first reefing point rigged with a longer line and can move the 1st reef blocks on the sail to the 3rd reefing points. Our decision offshore where stronger weather might be encountered would be to forego the first reefing point and rig in advance for Reef 2 and Reef 3 so as not to have to go up top in bad weather.

[Clivevon]

Originally Posted by JasonS

On our 40 foot catamaran, we have 3 reefing points, but only two lines running up the boom. We have the first reefing point rigged with a longer line and can move the 1st reef blocks on the sail to the 3rd reefing points. Our decision offshore where stronger weather might be encountered would be to forego the first reefing point and rig in advance for Reef 2 and Reef 3 so as not to have to go up top in bad weather.

Sounds reasonable. Better to be prepared by having the 3rd reef & not need it, than the reverse - especially on a catamaran which cannot reduce sail area by itself (by heeling).

[MJH]

Originally Posted by aj676

We are in process of rigging our 42' catamaran (weighs approx 16,000 lbs.) and have the option to add another reef point. The design currently includes 2 reefs, each 20% of sail area. We're looking for any real experience or the pros/cons of 2 vs. 3 reefs and what percentage each reef was in those cases.

Tiny bit of backstory: We bought this boat in 2016, sailed/motored it home and have spent 5 years rebuilding it. So we really don't have a lot of experience with sailing it in any 'weather'. It was a power boat this year but is back in the water. Next year we will be a proper sailboat again.

Having two reefs that are equal to three normal reefs (3x12%) gets you reefed with some safety margin. Looks like you are already there (2x20%).

~ ~ _/) ~ ~ MJH

[JPA Cate]

We're a monohull, and we have a lot of miles on our 3rd reef. I think you need to consult with a really good rigging engineer, familiar with your kind of mast. having 70 sq. ft. of mast as 3rd reef is a LOT of sail area in a big blow. We used to speak in terms of 60 sq. ft. for a storm jib alone. With the exception of thunder storms, you are most likely to get caught out on a long passage, when you can't quite get out of the way of a big active front coming your way.

Talk to someone who understands both catamarans and your type of mast. We all have opinions based on different experience than your particular vessel. You need an engineer who if familiar with what you need, or you make a 3 reef experiment, and maybe next time (after your own experience with the boat), go to 2.

I would not go the 3rd reef un-rove route, because when you need it, you REALLY want it!, and they are fussy to get rove correctly.

Ann

[zstine]

I personally prefer 2 reefs. With 3 reefs, by the time you need to reef the first reef probably is not enough and I found you go right to the second reef. You also end up with a lot of reefing lines with three reefs and it is a mess. yes, you can do the 'remove first reef and put in place for 3rd' method to reduce lines, but that means working on deck. With 2 reefs you have nearly the same range of reefing since the second reef is almost as much as a 3rd reef... so 2 reefs, it's just easier.

[DreamCatcher37]

....."My final advice with my 60 years of sailing experience is to have three reefs, of which only the last one (3rd) has to be automatic (implemented while all crew members remain safe in the cockpit)."

This is brilliant advice to all. We sailed San Diego to New Zealand only after adding a thrid reef which we used far more than we thought we would esp night watch time. The lines to our third reef are both led aft to the cockpit and the 3rd reef can be in place securely and safely from the cockpit. YES extra weight and stress on the mainsail no doubt, but the safety trade off is well worth this. Kuddos to my crew then Milosz who insisted we install the 3rd reef before the onset of the voyage making.
Bryon
Bella Sirena




QUOTE=ftamburrano;3512577]Previous statements were:

"If there are no plans to sail offshore, two reefs will be plenty.". But you never know whether you will never sail offshore! It may happen, sooner or later! Why limit your freedom in advance?

"The typical cruising mainsail configuration uses two reefs, that are normally placed at intervals of approximately 12% of the luff length [not sail area]."
This does not take into account the fact that wind thrust is not linear with wind speed, but exponential. If wind speed increases by 24%, and you reduce surface by 24%, you are still in much worse condition than before! Reducing sail area by 24% is totally insufficient even in coastal sailing. Moreover, local situations are rarely foreseen by wheather forecast, and you may find yourself in trouble even if you had investigated different forecasts.

"In fact, most sailors, who limit their sailing to local trips, don’t sail for extended periods in high winds. The only high wind they will see will be in localized squalls, when they will probably take the mainsail down completely."
A valid safety criterium is to be ready for any situation at any time. Not sailing in high winds for extended periods of time may be useful in choosing the type of fabric (longer lasting), but not the surface area. Even a few minutes of extreme squalls may cause a big damages. You must always be ready to quickly reduce surface. I have two manual reefs, and the third one automatic (you do everything from the cockpit!). Very useful if sailing in the Gulf of leon (sudden Mistral blowing at 50 kn!), south of Rhone valley.

"A third reef is sometimes added for offshore work, again at another 12% of luff length (36%). Few boats, however, are set up with reef hardware for three reefs. The third reef will slightly decrease the overall durability of the sail (by adding weight to the leech), and necessitate hardware changes to the boom, to allow for a third reef line."
Reducing sail area by another 12% is totally insufficient. Look at graphs plotting wind force against wind speed! A slight decrease of sail durability should not be an element of decision where safety comes first. Hardware changes are limited and easy to implement.
My final advice with my 60 years of sailing experience is to have three reefs, of which only the last one (3rd) has to be automatic (implemented while all crew members remain safe in the cockpit). First reef reduces by luff length by 12%, 2nd by another 16%, , 3rd by 22%. At the end you have a max of 50% of luff length (no sail area) , no more! The reduction must be MORE THAN proportional.[/QUOTE]

[Tupaia]

We have a light cat with boards with 4 reefs and a Cunningham. Our forth reef is our storm sail. When off shore we rig 2, 3 & 4. Coastal 1, 2 & 3. Most cats are mainsail driven, they also can't spill wind so having enough gears will always give you the best performance. In your case your wing mast represents your storm sail so 3 reefs should be enough. Two will limit the flexibility in some conditions. Set the mainsail for the gusts and use the jib(s) as the accelerator pedal.



If your mast is at all raked and or your boom is kicked up make sure the reef points are below the battens otherwise the battens will jam when reefing.

[smj]

We have a 40’ 6700 lb performance cat with a wing mast. As the former owner told me, the first reef is to center the mast, which does take away some significant power.
We have 3 reef points in the main but have never used the third. I guarantee there will be a time when I’m glad it’s there.

[blubaju]

42' Schionning Design, carbon wing mast,larger sailplan bcs low-wind sailing area, 3 reefs, used all of them a lot, would not like to miss one

[chasfgr]

Depends on rig and sail area.


A lightweight boat with a 7/8 rig and a mast x1.5 boat length, I have two sigle line reefs and two furher sets of points.
I have used them all in the 42K miles I've done on the boat.
On most modern, undercanvassed large-headsai boats 2 are more than adequate.l

[Smooth Cruiser]

As others say depends on the boat and your sailing style. I have a 44 foot fairly light easily driven cat. My first main had three reefs in the fairly typical positions. On my current main I went for only 2 reefs but I put them where you would normally put reefs 1 and 3. My rationale is that I still want a relatively small first reef, I call this my safety tuck and I happily put it in when true wind gusts over 17 knots with no reduction in boat speed. I also put it in at night on passages. I used to have a deeper 1st reef but it did slow the boat down so I was sometimes loathe to put it in, I don't wand to hesitate about reefing like this so a shallow first reef is good.

Then reef 2 for me takes away more than 50% of the main area so it is good for racing safety regs, and my philosophy is that if it is windy enough for 2 reefs I want a lot of sail gone. My third reef is then bare poles or storm jib.

Removing one reefing point saved $2k in the cost of making the sail and in hardware and I've never missed it - but I am happy to depower a lot when the wind gets up - having a light boat it still goes fast.