12th edition of Transat Jacques Vabre: 8 Tris (Multi50 & Maxis) started on Sunday

[Skip JayR]

Originally Posted by Polux

You mean the one that lost the race sailed better????

I suppose Sodebo had the better weather tactic till Canary islands.

Originally Posted by Polux

You seem to think Sodebo is an "old" boat inferior to Macif when in fact both boats have very similar performances. That's why for a time Sodebo was ahead and during much of the race they sailed with the same pace.

I already projected for the future... Macif appeared on the race course for TJV with one single foil. By guarantee they will work hard to pimp it for the Vende Globe with two foils.

What can Sodebo set against ? The 2 tons higher weight are good for heavy and bad weather. So going through the "roaring Forties" sodebo might have some benefits... while in lighter winds Macif might be the stronger boat.

Lets see what they will optimize over next 10 months. Sodebo got a lesson by Macif and the developer/designer team will make their conclusions out of it.

Originally Posted by Polux

You seem to think that the new Sodebo (2014) was something to do with the old one (2007) and that is not true. It is a new boat made out of an extensive modification of Geronimo, the record breaking boat of Olivier de Kersauson (2001). All the foils are state of the art new ones.

Who said that ? Me ? 2007 is not 2014. Yes, of course... who cant remember Geronimo. I'd like to see Olivier de Kersauson on the start line for THE RACE in December 2001 ? As we know the boat was not ready so I have seen Olivier in Barcelona pacing around on a Motor trimaran (I think it was Ocean Alquemist, see picture) like mad around the competitors... never seen such a "crazy mad enthusiastic guy". Hyper like a kidd. :-)


There exist a beautifully video when Olivier is visiting Thomas which shows that Olivier still can enjoy this boat like a child giving unconditionally love. Watch 00:40-00:49.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bo9oTVR4pcg

Geronimo is still the father (or the mother) of all Maxi Trimarans, no doubt about. I think without Olivier's passion we never would experience nowadays all these giants.

I cant say anything about foils... still a "closed book" I have to study. I dont know if Sodebo's foils are same competitive compared to Macif's ?? DoughL can tell us more about I suppose

[Skip JayR]

Very pity that Multi50 Arkema had to land on Brazil coast on Monday because of heavily damages of the central hull (from daggerboard up to the bow).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mohbm_rO0U

Lalou Roucayrol and Cesar Dohy were 70 miles from Salvador de Bahia this afternoon. The duo have their technical team standing by to make a laminate repair to the cracks in the main hull which were allowing substantial water ingress, requiring them to pump to keep the boat safe. (Source: Decisive Times in Transat Jacques Vabre >> Scuttlebutt Sailing News)

Citiation of skipper Erwan Leroux on leading Multi50 FenêtréA Prysmian:

“Aboard FenêtréA Prysmian we are under gennaker and have one reef in the mainsail, we are on starboard tack and we are sailing along the Brazilian coast. What has happened to Arkema is a shame, I hope they will repair successfully and bring the boat to Itajaí. The important thing is that Lalou can save the boat. Through that first week of the race, we had our share of all miseries with these four different wind regimes. Even the last 500 miles of the race and we’ll see 25 knots with gusts to 35. It’s a long race and very very technical.. It was a stormy depression that hollow, one is obliged to go near the coast, we will cross a front. We have a big problem on the mainsail. We have to sail with one reef and in no time we’ll take a second reef.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Skip JayR

..

I already projected for the future... Macif appeared on the race course for TJV with one single foil. By guarantee they will work hard to pimp it for the Vende Globe with two foils.
What can Sodebo set against ? The 2 tons higher weight are good for heavy and bad weather. So going through the "roaring Forties" sodebo might have some benefits... while in lighter winds Macif might be the stronger boat.

Skip, it seems you like this races, so do I and that is what really I really don't want to argue with you, kind of mine is bigger than yours. Not interested in that.

Yes, Macif raced on this race with only a experimental new foil since they had not time to make the other and in the future the boat will race with the configuration the boat was designed, with two of the new foils but you are confusing Macif boats. There are two, a Maxi trimaran and an Open 60. The one that will race on the Vendee Globe will be the Open60 since that is a only monohull race, exclusively for Imoca boats.

Two tons more!!!! is a lot more. Are you sure? Where did you find the weight of Sodebo?

Regarding new experimental foils, no doubt they will work better when fully tried and improved but now they are not yet a warranty of a better performance: Look at the Open60's where the boat with older foils is leading the race ahead of Banque Populaire (2nd) that is a new boat with the new foils.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Skip JayR

Very pity that Multi50 Arkema had to land on Brazil coast on Monday because of heavily damages of the central hull (from daggerboard up to the bow).

Lalou Roucayrol and Cesar Dohy were 70 miles from Salvador de Bahia this afternoon. The duo have their technical team standing by to make a laminate repair to the cracks in the main hull which were allowing substantial water ingress, requiring them to pump to keep the boat safe.

So that's why they were going slower and were so easily overtaken by Ciella village. Very tricky to sail in bad weather the Multi5o and very hard to know what is limit to impose for not damage the boat. No doubt the problems were due to the stress that was imposed to the hull on the earlier stages of the races, when they got bad weather.

From all the classes the Multi 50 are the ones more difficult to sail and those sailors deserve my unconditional respect.

Regarding the race and the faster boats everything remains the same. I was right regarding Le roux and the Multi50 to pass Riou on the Open 60, considering the sea and wind conditions, even if I thought that the Multi50 would be more fast. Both boats remained not far from each other.

If nothing strange will happen The next 5 to arrive will arrive on the order they are sailing now, first a Multi50, then close, an Open60, then two other Open 60's, a multi 50 followed by two other Open60's.

Le Roux will win on Multi50 and Riou will win on IMOCA (Open 60's) two very deserved victories.

The main interest of the race will be now on the class40, that even smaller proved to be by far the toughest class on the race, in what regards sailing in bad weather and breakage. On that class there are very interesting developments:

The leader, Bestaven, lost much time crossing the Doldrums and the 2th, Sorel is at only 31nm with 2100nm to the finish. The third is not far also, at only 22nm from the 2nd. The distance between them should increase a bit on the next hours since Bestaven has stronger winds but after that it will be a question of strategy more than anything else. Nice

[Skip JayR]

Originally Posted by Polux

Two tons more!!!! is a lot more. Are you sure? Where did you find the weight of Sodebo?

The team keeps it till today very secretly. No details about the displacement:
https://www.sodebo.com/fr/voile/sode...e-sodebo-ultim

So it needs little bit calculation around other given parameters...

The old Sodebo Tri built in 2007 had 13,2 tons (26455 lbs) as max. load, the old Gironimo had ~23 tons so reducing the weight for Thomas was a very urgent issue, citiation:

"From our earliest research, we knew there was a lot of weight to be saved from the central hull. There were two tables, two galleys, and 12 berths in Geronimo as she was! So at Multiplast in Vannes a new 31m central hull, designed by VPLP, who designed the boat originally. We kept the boom, although that has been modified. A new 35m mast is being completed by Lorima. We've strengthened the cross beams and added foils in her floats. We have also replaced nine meters of her floats to improve their hydrodynamics and added rudders to them that were not there before. This gigantic puzzle required us also to come up with a boat that is as light as possible, but with a reliable structure."

Little bit research pops it up. In July 2014 was reported that the refit brought the benefit of 7 tons weight reduction. So in total we can assume that Sodebo has a displacement of ~16 tons.

Citiation of designer Vincent Lauriot-Prevost already in May 2014:

"The major point was to have confidence in the performance estimates of this modified version, to make good decisions regarding the weight versus the power of the boat and to confirm that we could save seven tons, enabling us to be closer to our reference point: the Maxi Trimaran Banque Populaire VII. She will be a serious competitor in the Route du Rhum!"

Maxi Trimaran Macif has 14,5 tons. So the difference would be ~1.5 tons compared with Sodebo.

In comparison to the world record holder of non stop circumnavigation being built and refitted over last 10 year: Tri IDEC (ex Bank Populaire VII ex Groupama3) has 18 tons, launched in 2006.

Latest competitor Spindrift2 is ready for a new circumnavigation record attempt. Its the "heavy lady" but same the biggest with 40 meters LOA (main hull) and 20.5 tons, built in 2008.

Refit of Gironimo originally and in the design of Sodebo in warft Multiplast...

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Skip JayR

The team keeps it till today very secretly. No details about the displacement:
https://www.sodebo.com/fr/voile/sode...e-sodebo-ultim

So it needs little bit calculation around other given parameters...

The old Sodebo Tri built in 2007 had 13,2 tons (26455 lbs) as max. load, the old Gironimo had ~23 tons so reducing the weight for Thomas was a very urgent issue, citiation:

Little bit research pops it up. In July 2014 was reported that the refit brought the benefit of 7 tons weight reduction. So in total we can assume that Sodebo has a displacement of ~16 tons.

Citiation of designer Vincent Lauriot-Prevost already in May 2014: Maxi Trimaran Macif has 14,5 tons. So the difference would be ~1.5 tons compared with Sodebo.

In comparison to the world record holder of non stop circumnavigation being built and refitted over last 10 year: Tri IDEC (ex Bank Populaire VII ex Groupama3) has 18 tons, launched in 2006.

Latest competitor Spindrift2 is ready for a new circumnavigation record attempt. Its the "heavy lady" but same the biggest with 40 meters LOA (main hull) and 20.5 tons, built in 2008.

Refit of Gironimo originally and in the design of Sodebo in warft Multiplast...

Bottom point, you are guessing. An educated guess anyhow.

I believe it is heavier,exactly how much it has been kept secret. The Sodebo is a more powerful boat, with more beam (21.2 to 21.0m) carrying more sail upwind (444m2 to 430m2) and downwind ( 663m2 to 650m2) and that maintains the balance between the two boats in what regards performance.

That is what this race have showed in different moments.

François Gabart come from the Open 60's and sailed this boat only for a little more than 2 months before the race and even the French, that know his huge talent, are a bit surprised with his victory on the first race with a new type of boat that he sailed just for a couple of months: Dans le Figaro they call it the sail Mozart

François Gabart, «le Mozart de la voile», triomphe déjà en multicoque - Transat Jacques Vabre - Voile

Regarding the race it seems my prediction was correct and they will come on the order they had before, with Le Roux and the Multi arriving ahead of the first Open 60 by a very short margin. A great race to Riou and Le Roux, the winners on Open 60 and and Multi50.

The main interest of the race is now on the 40 class, with the three first completely out of the Doldrum. As it was expected the distances between them increased a bit since they did not escape the Doldrums exactly at the same time but from here to the finish it will be a great race (I hope) and the one with the best strategy will win. The 2th is at 31nm from the first and the third at 73nm with 2000nm to go.

http://tracking.transat-jacques-vabre.com/en/

[Skip JayR]

in next 8-10 hours we will see the arrival of Multi50 Fenetrea Prysmian as the wind speed reduced heavily going under land. Still 88 nm to race.

For now at 04:00 am CET the leading multi50 is sailing 11 knots and close behind only 15 nm on distance the IMOCA PRB with a speed of 9 knots, both straight West course.

Great finish at early morning Brazil time after sailing far more than 5,400 nautical miles !

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Skip JayR

in next 8-10 hours we will see the arrival of Multi50 Fenetrea Prysmian as the wind speed reduced heavily going under land. Still 88 nm to race.

For now at 04:00 am CET the leading multi50 is sailing 11 knots and close behind only 15 nm on distance the IMOCA PRB with a speed of 9 knots, both straight West course.

Great finish at early morning Brazil time after sailing far more than 5,400 nautical miles !

That's absolutely fantastic, two very different boats, a monohull and a multihull, a 60ft and a 50ft, arriving after 17 days of race with a difference of about 2 hours. The Average speed of the Multihull was 13.29k, the one of the monohull 13. 22k, a difference of 0.07k.

On the 40 class the race is hot, with the 2th, Sorel, managing to recover miles over the leader, Bestaven. They are now at 22nm with 1850nm to sail.

Also worth reference is the recovery of Thibault, once among the leaders, that had to stop for repairs on Cabo Verde and has been able to overtake Delesne, being now 4th. No way he can recover more places but it will be interesting to see if he is actually the fastest 40class on the race. He is at 307nm from the leader and almost out of the Doldrums (lots of miles won over Delesne).



Transat Jacques Vabre 2015 : Le Havre - Itajai. Suivi Cartographique

[Skip JayR]

Originally Posted by Polux

Dans le Figaro they call it the sail Mozart
François Gabart, «le Mozart de la voile», triomphe déjà en multicoque - Transat Jacques Vabre - Voile

Haha... thats typically French. Its so deeply in this nation imprinted this kind of thinking and feeling. They love big, big words... and lots of talking.. and they love it with big theatric. Similarly Germans can talk hours and days about soccer ( ).

When we had been competitor for the Grand Mistral 80 One design project of Swiss-French sailor Pierre Fehlmann in the 90th they had the headquarter and boat yard in Marseille. Lots of talking we had to go through... and during ceremonies and public events, it felt like "hours of bla, bla, bla talking" about the smallest aspects of bâteau à voile.... bateau here, bateau there, bateau everywhere. French can talk hours about it.


Only 8 of these Maxis had been built 1996, instead of 20 as planned... because lack of sponsors. The boat had an interesting Bruce Farr design concept that time with pumping water ballast for quick trimming.

Hans Bauscholte(Belgian Synphony)BEL Ross Field(R.F.Yachting)NZL Guido Maisto(Seac Banche)ITA Ernesto Bertarelli(Alinghimax)SUI Ludde Ingvall(Nicorette)SWE Jules Mazars(Le Defe Bouygues Telecom)FRA Geoff Meek(Rainbow Magic)RSA Marc Pajot(Fast 2000)EUR
The media coverage of this event was a nightmare. It was "too French" it didnt attract internationally media attention. Originally there had been far more than 30 teams being interested in this event to race a one design class as we have known that "single built boats" will become too expensive for sponsors. We calculated a 2 boat campaign for Whitbread/Volvo Ocean race that time between 20-40 million US dollars.

The old connections Pierre had from his 5 times Whitbread participation didnt work anymore for international sail racing business. You can re-read here a review of that time.
Plans set fair for Grand Mistral | Sport | The Independent

It really got on one nerves with all the struggles behind the curtains/closed doors. A very chaotic time, stressfully and very costly. That time 1996/1997 yet we had no real Internet, no skype video conferences... so lots of travelling etc. ...

Anyhow... all history. Lets look what is going today and into the future ! :-) No time for "good old memories".

[Skip JayR]

Hip, Hip, Hurray !!!! Bravo... well done. Congrats to Erwan LE ROUX and Giancarlo Pedote (co-skipper). Bravooooo

Erwan now is three times winner of TJV. - After his win of Route du Rhum in 2014, and two times the Transat Jacques Vabre in 2009 and 2013 he crossed on board of Multi50 FenêtréA-Prysmian at 11:59 am the finish line having sailed the distance of ~5400 nm in nearby 17 days. - Great continuouity of high performance.

Two hours later came in IMOCA PRB. Congrats to Vincent Riou and Seb Col !


Remarkable: Since first day Vincent and Seb navigated the racing boat without electronics because of a navigation system failure. They only had the datas of COG (Course over ground) and SOG (Speed over ground) ! - No wind strength, no wind direction. - Sailing by using all senses and natural instincts and being competitive on highest level is still possible ! - Maybe the biggest and most impressive lesson we can learn from TJV2015.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Skip JayR

Hip, Hip, Hurray !!!! Bravo... well done. Congrats to Erwan LE ROUX and Giancarlo Pedote (co-skipper). Bravooooo

Pedote, an Italian among French, is certainly very happy: From top mini solo racing to winning transats on a Multi 50, what a big steep!!!!

SeaYou: the new sail tv show by Giancarlo Pedote.

Originally Posted by Skip JayR

Remarkable: Since first day Vincent and Seb navigated the racing boat without electronics because of a navigation system failure. They only had the datas of COG (Course over ground) and SOG (Speed over ground) ! - No wind strength, no wind direction. - Sailing by using all senses and natural instincts and being competitive on highest level is still possible ! - Maybe the biggest and most impressive lesson we can learn from TJV2015.

Yes a remarkable feat, especially taking into consideration the performance.

[Polux]

Big battle for 1st on the Class 40. Sorel/Manuard had managed to reduce over night the difference to the first (Bestaven/Brasseur) to just 14nm (from 22). Still 1630nm to the finish.

It will be very interesting to follow. By the way Manuard is a NA and designed the boat he is sailing on.

[barnakiel]

Something is off on the leading C40 - they sailed way faster than their competition, now they hardly match the V&B speed. I bet they lost a C0 or similar sail or they may have the main compromised in a way.

BTW Have just watched a Neel 45 RACING edition dock. Chatted to the skipper. 6 tons, taller mast, etc. Pretty cool.

b.

[Polux]

You mean the Neal 45 that is going to make the ARC? I am very curious about the performance of that boat on the ARC. Some years back, in 2011 I saw the first one on the water and I was not impressed.

I was sailing a brand new Salona 41 performance and with light winds was way faster than the Neel. I went near the boat to see it well and the guys were kind of pissed with me circling the boat and wenting away after that. I guess it will be a fast boat downwind with medium and strong winds, if well sailed.

Regarding the 40class race for the 1st place I don't think Bestaven's boat (the 1st) has any problem. His boat and the one of Sorel (2th) are both top boats with a very similar performance and the difference between them has been of about 0.1K difference on the last 24 hours, with an advantage to the 2th.

Bestaven had won that big difference on the middle of the race due to a better routing and lost it on the doldrums by bad luck at the time of crossing and bad choices there. This is going to be a very tight fight till the finish. On the last 4 hours they had again a difference of 0.1k in average speed but this time to the advantage of the first, Bestaven.

It is going to be specially interesting because there are weak winds ahead and lots of tactical decisions have to be made regarding the best course. That's where the race will be won or lost.

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by Polux

You mean the Neal 45 that is going to make the ARC? I am very curious about the performance of that boat on the ARC. Some years back, in 2011 I saw the first one on the water and I was not impressed.

I was sailing a brand new Salona 41 performance and with light winds was way faster than the Neel. I went near the boat to see it well and the guys were kind of pissed with me circling the boat and wenting away after that. I guess it will be a fast boat downwind with medium and strong winds, if well sailed.

Regarding the 40class race for the 1st place I don't think Bestaven's boat (the 1st) has any problem. His boat and the one of Sorel (2th) are both top boats with a very similar performance and the difference between them has been of about 0.1K difference on the last 24 hours, with an advantage to the 2th.

Bestaven had won that big difference on the middle of the race due to a better routing and lost it on the doldrums by bad luck at the time of crossing and bad choices there. This is going to be a very tight fight till the finish. On the last 4 hours they had again a difference of 0.1k in average speed but this time to the advantage of the first, Bestaven.

It is going to be specially interesting because there are weak winds ahead and lots of tactical decisions have to be made regarding the best course. That's where the race will be won or lost.

Yep. Her skipper said they averaged 11kts on the passage from (?) (I think he said Madeira). We will see how they do.

You must be right on C40 track as by now they seem pretty much head to head with an elastique run from Yannick's boat to the 'chase boat' ;-)

BTW the first mini has just arrived in Point a Pitre. Something like 12 days 18 hours or thereabouts (Lanzarote to Gudeloupe). That's dart fast - one of the boats averaged 277 on one day which stands very spectacular compared to C40 making about the same distance daily. A Mini is only 6.5 long and they are sailed solo. Yiihhhhaaaaaaa! I would like one.

Other fine boats here to watch now are a new Pogo 40s2, one Pogo 50, two new Jeanneau SunFasts 3600, an Azzurree 45 (or 6?) and something new and white, but I must check the inscripts to tell you what she is. She looks alloy or carbon, very long, with fancy midship windows ...

b.