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Old 14-11-2016, 14:03   #91
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Re: "Worth it" to top off diesel for the winter?

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I'll assume you have (had?) the Aztec rather than Apache. Good ol' workhorse.
I had an Apache. Did not use it for hire (much). Did a lot of air-touring/camping into fairly challenging back-country (high, short) strips. Did my initial - instrument, commercial, and instructor training in it. I flew it 1000 hrs.

The plane had single engine redundancy for 95+% of my use. It would climb dirty with a light load in my area (cool and sea-level). Clean, it would fly per book. Definitely not as bad a single engine performer as the rumor-mill would make it out to be.

I do miss flying that plane. I DO NOT miss maintaining it.

Steve




Gunkholing, airplane style.....
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Old 14-11-2016, 14:14   #92
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Re: "Worth it" to top off diesel for the winter?

I had an Apache. Did not use it for hire (much). Did a lot of air-touring/camping into fairly challenging back-country (high, short) strips. Did my initial - instrument, commercial, and instructor training in it. I flew it 1000 hrs.

The plane had single engine redundancy for 95+% of my use. It would climb dirty with a light load in my area (cool and sea-level). Clean, it would fly per book. Definitely not as bad a single engine performer as the rumor-mill would make it out to be.

I do miss flying that plane. I DO NOT miss maintaining it.

Steve

Looks like you had a lot of fun with the plane, Steve. I took my multi in an Apache many, many moons ago, and that one was a worn out old trainer. It pretty much lived up to the single-engine scene of the crash rep. Yours was most likely much better maintained than that poor old thing.

Raymond
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Old 14-11-2016, 16:10   #93
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"Worth it" to top off diesel for the winter?

The water injection was actually alcohol / water injection, it was done to cool the intake charge cause under high boost, the intake charge was hot enough to cause detonation, so you injected alcohol and water and could run higher boost and make more power for a short while.
It was also done on the early turbines, if you you look at old video of a B-52 on takeoff, when all that smoke began to roll is when the alcohol and water injection started.

I was in A trp 3/6 Cav at Ft Hood, one night we were in San Saba Tx at the little local airport with a half dozen Apaches, had a guy call in
bound in an Apache, I answered back be careful there are a half dozen Apaches right off the side of the runway, no answer.
He got closer and under the Flir I could tell it was a twin engine airplane, so I turned on the search light to light us up, he apparently thought somebody was being a smart *** with the half dozen Apaches comment and never thought helicopter, of course we heard Apache 1234 inbound and though only about another helicopter
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Old 14-11-2016, 18:21   #94
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Re: "Worth it" to top off diesel for the winter?

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Diesel is hygroscopic and absorbs water from air. Its not tank surface condensation alone!
Moisture migrates from high humidity zones to low humidity zones so it keeps coming in through the vents. Not very rapidly but over time it mounts up and it doesn't take much to promote the growth of microbe colonies which plug up a fuel system.
Warm fuel is more absorbant than cold fuel so its more of a problem in the tropics.

The condensation calculations are interesting but irrelevant.
I agree but also water does form under the lid of a tank as the diesel heats up...and sorry that I don't have Steven Hawkins to demonstrate this.
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Old 14-11-2016, 19:25   #95
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Re: "Worth it" to top off diesel for the winter?

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Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
The water injection was actually alcohol / water injection, it was done to cool the intake charge cause under high boost, the intake charge was hot enough to cause detonation, so you injected alcohol and water and could run higher boost and make more power for a short while.
It was also done on the early turbines, if you you look at old video of a B-52 on takeoff, when all that smoke began to roll is when the alcohol and water injection started.

I was in A trp 3/6 Cav at Ft Hood, one night we were in San Saba Tx at the little local airport with a half dozen Apaches, had a guy call in
bound in an Apache, I answered back be careful there are a half dozen Apaches right off the side of the runway, no answer.
He got closer and under the Flir I could tell it was a twin engine airplane, so I turned on the search light to light us up, he apparently thought somebody was being a smart *** with the half dozen Apaches comment and never thought helicopter, of course we heard Apache 1234 inbound and though only about another helicopter
My understanding was that the alcohol/water injection really cut down on the TBOs, too. I was in fighters (jet), but we were often co-located with B-52 wings, so I saw what you're talking about. I walked around a 52 one night and then went into the thing. A real monster they are. HUGE!

Love your Apache story and sure can see it happening. Good laugh for everyone that night, I'm sure.
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Old 15-11-2016, 11:23   #96
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Re: "Worth it" to top off diesel for the winter?

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Diesel is hygroscopic and absorbs water from air. Its not tank surface condensation alone!
Moisture migrates from high humidity zones to low humidity zones so it keeps coming in through the vents. Not very rapidly but over time it mounts up and it doesn't take much to promote the growth of microbe colonies which plug up a fuel system.
Warm fuel is more absorbant than cold fuel so its more of a problem in the tropics.

The condensation calculations are interesting but irrelevant.
So you agree that the condensation theory is false.

Now to the moisture migration theory: If the tank was an open topped box, I might buy your moisture migration theory. If the air "inside" was dried, it would quickly transition back to being humid but most of that moisture migration would be due to air "outside' the box mixing with air "inside" the box thru air movement. Even with very low air movement, it wouldn't take long to completely replace the air space "inside" the box. But that's not consistent with fuel tank design.

With a 1/4" vent line with minimal airflow, the mixing action is going to be negligible and pretty much limited to what is introduced with the diurnal temperature expansion & contraction, so we are back to the situation where there simply isn't enough moisture in the available air space to be able to extract (condensation, hygorscopism?, etc..) to get a measurable quantity of free water in the tank.
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Old 15-11-2016, 11:28   #97
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Re: "Worth it" to top off diesel for the winter?

I asked this question earlier in the thread but it probably got overlooked for its sheer dumb simplicity... what about just putting a piece of electrical tape over the tank vent? It would pop off if the expansion pressure were really that high, but otherwise it might prevent the daily bellows effect and therefore keep any moisture from entering? Obviously the desiccant cartridge is a better solution if the motor is being used, but for long winter absences what's wrong with gently covering the vent with tape?
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Old 15-11-2016, 11:37   #98
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Re: "Worth it" to top off diesel for the winter?

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I asked this question earlier in the thread but it probably got overlooked for its sheer dumb simplicity... what about just putting a piece of electrical tape over the tank vent? It would pop off if the expansion pressure were really that high, but otherwise it might prevent the daily bellows effect and therefore keep any moisture from entering? Obviously the desiccant cartridge is a better solution if the motor is being used, but for long winter absences what's wrong with gently covering the vent with tape?

Nothing, you can do that of course, when we "Pickle" aircraft engines one thing we do is seal the exhausts and the intake and the crankcase breather with "barrier paper" sort of a fancy plastic coated aluminum foil to prevent moisture laden air from entering. We also fog the cylinders and use a special preservative oil and replace the spark plugs with clear ones made from plastic that have desiccant in them.
Just from temperature change you wont build enough pressure or vacuum inside of the tank to matter.
Heck it will also keep bugs from building a nest in it, a problem we have down here.
Won't hurt anything to put tape over it, probably won't matter, but then you didn't waste a lot of time and money, so why not?
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Old 15-11-2016, 11:41   #99
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Re: "Worth it" to top off diesel for the winter?

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I agree but also water does form under the lid of a tank as the diesel heats up...and sorry that I don't have Steven Hawkins to demonstrate this.
Pictures, other evidence of this?

Also what percentage simply evaporates and doesn't stay in liquid form.

You would think if this was really the case, there would be pictures demonstrating the issue in a real fuel tank on a real cruising boat but I can't find any pictures of a boat fuel tank in storage with tanks dripping moisture on the inside.

But hey, fun quips about Steven Hawkins is a lot more fun that factual discussion.
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Old 15-11-2016, 11:47   #100
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Re: "Worth it" to top off diesel for the winter?

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Pictures, other evidence of this?

Also what percentage simply evaporates and doesn't stay in liquid form.

You would think if this was really the case, there would be pictures demonstrating the issue in a real fuel tank on a real cruising boat but I can't find any pictures of a boat fuel tank in storage with tanks dripping moisture on the inside.

But hey, fun quips about Steven Hawkins is a lot more fun that factual discussion.
This is why I detest these debatable topics. It seems to be more about winning a point rather than making one. good grief!
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Old 15-11-2016, 11:56   #101
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Re: "Worth it" to top off diesel for the winter?

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This is why I detest these debatable topics. It seems to be more about winning a point rather than making one. good grief!
So what was your point? It sure sounds like you got 2 gal of water in your tank thru a leaky fuel fill or vent during a hurricane and have zero evidence it was due to condensation.

When people point out how it's physically impossible for it to be condensation, rather than making a point based on physics and calculations, you provide passive/aggressive responses and snide comments about Steven Hawkins.

Again, provide some factual information and we can discuss. Basic physics isn't a "debatable topic."
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Old 15-11-2016, 12:10   #102
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Re: "Worth it" to top off diesel for the winter?

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So what was your point? It sure sounds like you got 2 gal of water in your tank thru a leaky fuel fill or vent during a hurricane and have zero evidence it was due to condensation.

When people point out how it's physically impossible for it to be condensation, rather than making a point based on physics and calculations, you provide passive/aggressive responses and snide comments about Steven Hawkins.

Again, provide some factual information and we can discuss. Basic physics isn't a "debatable topic."
Well...I want you to come away from all this happy....so you're absolutely, positively correct in everything you say here Vahalla. Congratulations!
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Old 15-11-2016, 12:34   #103
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Re: "Worth it" to top off diesel for the winter?

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Well...I want you to come away from all this happy....so you're absolutely, positively correct in everything you say here Vahalla. Congratulations!
Your comments remind me of the old monty python skit:

https://video.search.yahoo.com/searc...a&action=click


Come on give it a try, come up with something to support your position. You can do it....
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Old 15-11-2016, 13:30   #104
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Re: "Worth it" to top off diesel for the winter?

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Your comments remind me of the old monty python skit:

https://video.search.yahoo.com/searc...a&action=click


Come on give it a try, come up with something to support your position. You can do it....
I won't even entertain you by opening that link but rest assured...you're right no matter what.
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Old 19-11-2016, 02:23   #105
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Re: "Worth it" to top off diesel for the winter?

Too much ado.

Water is a sad reality in tanks
I am a fad of continuous fuel circulation and filtering, under power.

Any serious ship is in use 365days per annum, and cannot afford to go with full/empty tanks.

Additives : they break down water drops in fractions, for later burning. Biocides kill flora but increase water content. You must use both, or none (my friend runs a gas stn in the cold mountains)
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