When to pull the trigger

[TrentePieds]

A slightly different perspective, not meant to be unkind, but rather to come to understand better "where you are at", so we may help you better :-)

People who ask this age-old and oft repeated question in the manner you do are generally people with not a lot of experience, and therefore bewildered by the complexity of boats "in the round", and carrying an excess burden of "book larnin'".

I say again: That paragraph is NOT meant unkindly. Quite the opposite! We cannot really help you unless we know more about your sailing background. So do let us know what it is. Then we can have a sensible, helpful discussion about particular boats' fitness for doing what YOU want to do at this point in your sailing career.

All the best

TrentePieds

[David1033]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

A slightly different perspective, not meant to be unkind, but rather to come to understand better "where you are at", so we may help you better :-)

People who ask this age-old and oft repeated question in the manner you do are generally people with not a lot of experience, and therefore bewildered by the complexity of boats "in the round", and carrying an excess burden of "book larnin'".

I say again: That paragraph is NOT meant unkindly. Quite the opposite! We cannot really help you unless we know more about your sailing background. So do let us know what it is. Then we can have a sensible, helpful discussion about particular boats' fitness for doing what YOU want to do at this point in your sailing career.

All the best

TrentePieds

That's a perfectly clear response that applies to me too.

I have some experience sailing 4 metre open boats and helping on a 7 metre cruising sloop. As well as that I've studied (home / correspondence course) coastal navigation and celestial navigation, plus seamanship etc. I have also crewed for a few days on a 25 metre schooner, where I seemed to know what I was doing.

Currently I am in the process of selling our 22 m steel houseboat (used to be an inland waterways sailboat) with plans to move, buy a house and a 51' Formosa ketch.

I too need to learn about diesel engine systems and maintenance, 12 - 24 v electrical systems, radar / AIS / GPS / cgart plotting systems, AND I need to somehow get some day-skipper / owner and radio operator papers... Apart from making sure the boat I'm looking at is ok, how much of a climb do I have ahead of me?

[madworld]

That is a fair question.

I've sailed keel boats most of my life. Mostly in the 26-33 ft range, although one boats I currently help sail is 42 ft. I currently sail in the SF bay and out of Moss Landing, CA.

I've taken Basic Keelboat and Basic Cruising from OSCS out of Berkley (US Sailing).

My trepidation comes from the lack of experience of buying a larger keelboat, and the fact that I'm going to put a lot of money down, and I'd like some validation that I'm not making a grave mistake with my choices.

Also, my partner and I will be living on this boat. Everything we own will be on this boat. The whole idea is frightening, and I wouldn't have it any other way.

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

A slightly different perspective, not meant to be unkind, but rather to come to understand better "where you are at", so we may help you better :-)

People who ask this age-old and oft repeated question in the manner you do are generally people with not a lot of experience, and therefore bewildered by the complexity of boats "in the round", and carrying an excess burden of "book larnin'".

I say again: That paragraph is NOT meant unkindly. Quite the opposite! We cannot really help you unless we know more about your sailing background. So do let us know what it is. Then we can have a sensible, helpful discussion about particular boats' fitness for doing what YOU want to do at this point in your sailing career.

All the best

TrentePieds

[TrentePieds]

Hello David,

Quote: “how much of a climb do I have ahead of me? “

Probably not a lot :-)! If you acquitted yourself with honour as deck-gorilla in a 25M schooner, then your deckwork is probably well in hand. It may need a bit of polish perhaps, but that should be all. A schooner that size has about a 400 sqft mainsl, and my experience is that I can handle that amount of canvas unaided by “mod cons” in up to about 20 knots of wind. PARTICULARLY when I'm un-”aided” by gizmos such as roller furling ;-0)!

The word “praam” - or 'pram” in my native Danish – means nothing more than “flat bottomed”, and I do believe the Dutch use the word the very same way. Now we can talk about the different “aaks” such as the Lemsteraak, or the botters or the jachts or the schuyts and Lord knows what else begot by the canny Dutch. All these are quite different boats of different “model” (hull shape) and rig, and therefore of different sailing characteristics and having different handling requirements.. Characteristic for them all is that they are shoal draft boats even if they are not all flat-bottomed.

“4 metre open boats” is where you learn the finer points of trimming sail. “Enterprise” dinghies were once the standard. These days “420”s and "505"s are more the rule, but even a sprit-rigged fisherman's skiff goes a long way towards developing a sixth sense for what wind and wave are doing. “A 7 metre cruising sloop” is where most of us Scowegians got our start, to wit, on the Nordic Folkebåd. Great boats for learning, tho not so much for living in :-).

Now, a vrachtboot for the binnenvaart isn't, IMO, much of a preparation for a Formosa 51, But that doesn't matter in your case, because the schooner would have given you a taste of how a full keeler behaves in open water. We have a lady among our membership who sails a Formosa 51, and in my callow youth, a half century ago, I taught professionally on one. They were designed by the man who in my estimation was the premiere yacht designer of my youth: William Garden, and he designed tht boat for serious off-shore work. With a SailArea/Displacement ratio in the nether regions, something like 10, if I'm not mistaken, which today is considred unacceptably low, and a displacement/length ratio in the upper reaches, well over 400, which now-a-days is considered stratospheric, you'll have just what I would have if I were off to pick coconuts. IMO you couldn't do better :-)

Quote: “I've studied (home / correspondence course) coastal navigation and celestial navigation, plus seamanship “. Wonderful! This sort of stuff is “book larnin”. That is why we have marine academies! Once you've got an intellectual grip on it via the books, you go out an practice it where the “scattered waters rave and the winds their revels keep”, to quote the old song. Just work up to it slowly and don't get too brave. Don't bite off more than you can chew. You might like to know that I still do that sort of stuff the way Messrs Cook and Flinders did it. Not because I have to, but because that's how I get my sailing jollies :-)

So there you have it: You've got the hard stuff behind you. Your remaining climb will be shallow indeed. You mention learning to maintain your diesel – Well, if I'd suggested to MySaintedMother that I was going to service my diesel, she woulda looked all bewildered, got huffy and said: “Oh Dear – we HIRE people to do that!” Some sense in that point of view I s'pose, but I'm afraid I've let MSM down. I've learnt to do it. It comes with the years. So don't sweat it. It seems to me that you are well on your way :-)

Oh, a final bit of wisdom laid on me many years ago: "When you hear the breakers - COME ABOUT!" :-)

Best regards

TrentePieds

[TrentePieds]

Madworld:

The comments I made to David apply to you also, I'm sure, mutatis mutandis of course :-)

Trepidation has been the salvation of many a sailor. Don't go where you are not comfortable going! On the other hand go right up to the danger, but not too close, and having ALWAYS determined an escape route. In my teaching days I would set up my green-as-grass students for a fall in regard to the deck work, something reasonably frightening to them, but ultimately well within my competence, to let them see for themselves how danger develops. Then I'd step in and deal with it, when danger on deck had become more than a vague concept to them. Thus was trepidation made manifest while at the same time the groundwork was laid for dealing with it. If you would be a sailor, you have to be able to appear calm and do your work promptly and proficiently AFTER you've filled your knickers :-)!

If your trepidation has not to do with seamanship as much as it has to do with financial acumen, I'm not sure I can be of much help. Having been an accountant all my "civilian life", I am always preaching that no man should put more money into a boat (purchase and maintenance) than he can walk away from with a smile still on his face. That's why I sail a modest 30-footer. Even that costs me 10 grand a year out of a modest retirement income.

Now consider this. My displacement is 10K lbs. the Formosa 51 is 60K lbs. or six times as much. Displacement is a reasonable proxy for maintenance expense. So my romanticism notwithstanding, I'm forcing myself to be content with the five-tonner. Any man can BUY a boat. Only SOME men can KEEP a boat! The difference in maintenance/ownership cost, twixt the five-tonner and the thirty-tonner, of $50K a year buys me a helluvalot of Jameson's whiskey.

Consider another proxy: As you double the dimensions of a rectangular block, you increase it's volume by a factor of EIGHT. Just so with boats. As you double their length, you increase the maintenance costs by a factor of eight ( namely 2 x 2 x 2). Now, given that 51 feet is not quite twice 30 feet, the above mentioned increase in maintenance cost of a factor 6 is not unreasonable, is it?

MyBeloved had thot that she'd like to live aboard for the rest of our lives. My attitude was "Nah - you don't want a boat" [maybe I'll tell that story another time :-)]. But being a woossy push-over, I arranged matters in such a way that the rental income from our condo, which we own in clear title and would keep, would pay the cruising expenses. Now, it turns out that MB had gotten a little carried away with the romanticism of it all, and really she has no interest in BEING A SAILOR, though she loves spending time on the boat - as long as all she has to do is helm and cook and enjoy her retirement while I do the rest :-)! HER trepidation comes from finding the task of becoming a sailor well after retirement age overwhelming, and given our ages - I'm a dozen years older than she - I'm not gonna try to cure it. I'll single-hand the boat right until we strike soundings at Fiddlers' Green.


Cheers :-)


TrentePieds

[Baba Buoy]

If you day sail, then nurse that old iron a few more years if you are lucky. If you plan to cruise around the world, you will need new engine. You should bargain hard because that old engine does need replacing. Try to knock 10,000 off price. You will need about $ 18,000 to replace. I installed two 100 w solar panels, with mppt, on a new bimini for about $500 (ebay prices). That price you quote must include a really fancy arch.

[tarian]

Originally Posted by Baba Buoy

If you day sail, then nurse that old iron a few more years if you are lucky. If you plan to cruise around the world, you will need new engine. You should bargain hard because that old engine does need replacing. Try to knock 10,000 off price. You will need about $ 18,000 to replace. I installed two 100 w solar panels, with mppt, on a new bimini for about $500 (ebay prices). That price you quote must include a really fancy arch.

Nonsense on the Engine , clearly not a fan of the old perkins , a good perkins will out last the boat if looked after , service every year.
The boat is imaculate and you will bet the owner has looked after that perkins
Myths about sailing fly about here like Alien Abductions,
10000 of because of an engine which is in fine working order , I would not insult the owner

To those asking about learlnig curve , let me tell you if you have the mind set and determination it is easy,
my firsts large boat was 42ft 12 tonns , learned as I went, re wired a full 24 volt systyem better than it coame out of the factory , complete renovation of the boat and updated . no one told me how I learned it .
There are those that can! and those that want! and those that tell you it will take you this long (generally years)!
It wil take as long as you are determined to put into it my wifes first trip out was in 35 knots loved it learned it and moved on
Not everyone can do this , due to age, financials, attitude, but if you want it do it .
I suggest you read as much on it as possible , good quality books that will tell you the truth , then look at websites with the facts , and last these forums , yes there are thousands of amazing posts , but you also need to wade through the doom slingers , nae sayers , and years to do it lot.

People have been sailing around the world since the 16 hundreds and still do today with little Blue water experience, small boats , and NO SOLAR and the best equipment money can buy. they are the ones you will find more relaxed , less breakages and less worried how may amps their 600 watts of solar are giving them and how many more years will their battries give them, the less stressed are out there sailing and having fun , meeting new people and places and not watching others anchoring or mooring , with their running commentary and their ohhss and ahhs and I wouldn't do it that way attitude, there is no right or wrong , what ever works for you , if you have courage do it now you will not regret it

[masonc]

Originally Posted by madworld

I’m having a hard time knowing when to pull the trigger on making an offer for sailboat for cruising (eventually bluewater).

I know that I’d be waiting forever for the perfect used boat, with the right price to be on the market. And I know that I should buy a boat closest to cruising ready. But, those ideas are at odds, and I’m not sure where to draw the line.

Does this boat seem too far away from being ready to cruise?

We are currently looking at this T37: https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/198...utter-3550714/

Pros

• Great condition
• Never had teak decks
• Has windvane
• Has a small dinghy
• Many issues with older boats has been taken care of (e.g. black iron fuel tanks, now stainless)

Cons

• Needs electronics ($8k-12k)
• Needs staysail (roughly $2,500 +-$800)
• Needs liferaft (offshore roughly starts at $2,500, then $700 cradle)
• More modern anchor (nice to have)
• Heavy storm anchor ($1,300-$1,600)
• Outboard for dinghy
• Inverter
• GPS
• Solar panels, and a location to put them (Was thinking of davits with solar on top)
• Autopilot is older, and current owners never used it, so it’s unclear if any part of the system can be used.
• There 4200 hours on the Perkins 4-108 diesel, but the owner says she runs great, and 50hp is pretty nice on this displacement.

I’m fine with buying the electronics, since new same brand electronics communicate with each other easier, and installing them myself would give me a better understanding how the whole boat is wired. And the solar, since the rate at which solar panel technology improves is quick.

My biggest concern is that the autopilot would have to be replaced. I’m having a hard time pricing that out, but I suspect it’s expensive. (anybody have a quick estimate?).

And I’m not sure what davits with solar panel mounts would be either (see https://www.sailkalyra.com/2017/08/1...pics/img_4142/). I know that a custom arch could be upwards of $15k!

The diesel has some pretty high hours (4200). I know that a well maintained diesel can last for 8,000, but the average is closer to 5,000, and the engine photos don’t give me much confidence. Repowering would be an expensive venture.

We are getting close to half the price of the boat, just to outfit her. And I feel like that might be a low estimate.

This Tayana is honestly the closest we’ve found in the two years we’ve been seriously looking at boats. Almost all of our preferred models at the age we can afford need new decks.

What do you think? Should I wait for a boat that is closer to ready? Or should I make a low offer, and if taken, use the money to outfit her? If we got her for ~$45k, that would give us a good chunk of money to do the other work (assuming that work is less than $50k or so).

The boat looks perfect. Buy it, learn to sail it in easy increments, sail away and find your dreams. Stop worrying and have fun.

[tarian]

Originally Posted by masonc

The boat looks perfect. Buy it, learn to sail it in easy increments, sail away and find your dreams. Stop worrying and have fun.

Simple and correct

[Pete7]

The current owners should be complimented on some of the projects they have completed over the years.

I would be booking a taxi quickly and worrying who else has seen it for sale.

Pete

[nortonscove]

Some assumptions are expensive. Not sure why you need to replace all of the electronics unless it is expressly stated that none of them work. And the idea that they all need to talk to each other is a fallacy promoted by the industry to make bus loads of cash. We've been in the tug and barge field for too many decades to list and have been appalled by this crazy. Often times we've ended up putting back the old much more robust gear because the finicky new stuff was simply too frustrating to deal with.

[RaymondR]

What brand and model of autopilot does it have?