The not so benign Med

[boatman61]

The problem with Med mooring is two fold..
1/ The shoreside bollards/rings are 9 times out of 10 higher than the deck cleats causing loads at the wrong angles..
2/ Most folks tend to tie up close enough for the pasarelle to be constantly usable at the stern and then load up the anchor to stop the boat hitting the quay so the stern lines are often at a near 45 degree angle.

I tie up a tad further out to allow slack on my chain and on my lines so the boat can ride any surge comfortably.. I also have a 1/4inch line attached to the boat and to the shore.. when I want to step ashore I pull till the boat is close enough for the missus/crew to step off then do so myself and the boat goes back out to sit comfortably..
Reverse procedure on return.. never lost a cleat yet

[Greg K]

Originally Posted by boatman61

... when I want to step ashore I pull till the boat is close enough for the missus/crew to step off then do so myself and the boat goes back out to sit comfortably..
Reverse procedure on return.. never lost a cleat yet

We've done likewise for ages. It's a perfect solution, especially going bow to with a bowsprit.

[CassidyNZ]

Originally Posted by sanibel sailor

The cleat and it’s attachment need to be strong enough for what comes. Despite the manual, they will be used in a variety of ways over the boat’s lifetime. Expecting loads to only be directed in an ideal direction is not good engineering. I have reinforced mine as I recall they came with only fender washers, but I will be taking another look at their adequacy.

I’ve always thought that one of the purposes of a fairlead is exactly to direct the load in an ideal direction. Certainly on all the sailing boats I’ve owned, the docking line goes from the clear through a fairlead to the anchor point which places the cleat fasteners always in shear as opposed to upward (tensile) loads.

Not that this prevents damage - I presently have one of my bow fairleads broken as the result of a snatch load and to be honest, I wish it were the cleat that had failed. The fasteners under the deck holding the fairleads are virtually impossible to reach - I have no idea how the get them out.

[Montanan]

Analysis of strength of cleat and failure point based on angle of pull.

"In this test, the BoatUS Foundation wanted to examine one of the most critical links in the system: cleats. Working in conjunction with the University of Virginia School of Engineering, we set up laboratory testing apparatus to simulate the loads placed on cleats of different design configurations and materials. Our goal was to determine the direction and magnitude of the smallest force required to deform or break a cleat fixed to a rigid surface with mounting hardware specified by the manufacturer."

https://www.boatus.org/findings/16/

[slug]

Originally Posted by Montanan

Analysis of strength of cleat and failure point based on angle of pull.

"In this test, the BoatUS Foundation wanted to examine one of the most critical links in the system: cleats. Working in conjunction with the University of Virginia School of Engineering, we set up laboratory testing apparatus to simulate the loads placed on cleats of different design configurations and materials. Our goal was to determine the direction and magnitude of the smallest force required to deform or break a cleat fixed to a rigid surface with mounting hardware specified by the manufacturer."

https://www.boatus.org/findings/16/

“ mooring “ cleats are load certified

Important to use only authentic certified mooring cleats

This load certification is quoted for horizontal pull only

It assumed that a certified mooring cleat is installed and used in a way that allows it to meet its specification

Stay away from Chinese junk or any none certified cleats when the cleat may be subject to high loads

https://www.rocaindustry.com/product/cleat/

https://www.rocaindustry.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08//TEC-Roca_Mooring_Cleats.pdf

[Dr. D]

Originally Posted by walidada

Get a Class S and S Swan. There is an abyss in the build and design quality between them and Benneteau/Jeanneau. They are still going strong after 45 years and better than any modern boat.

Hey, buddy, that's MY boat you are talking about! (OK, well, you might be right...)


Things can get boisterous in the Med. Way back I was in the US Navy. The ship, USS Yosemite (AD-19), was a destroyer tender, 583' long with 73' beam. Since it was a repair ship we stayed in port. Med moored in Naples harbour we used 35' launches to get to the naval landing. Some days liberty was suspended as the harbour was too rough for the launches.

[Captn_Black]

Originally Posted by Greg K

We've had some rough weather on the coast of Spain over last fall and winter. Chafed mooring lines were par for the course but, surprisingly, ripped out cleats were also fairly common on Med moored boats in our marina.

Cleats ripped right out of the deck seems to me to be fairly common these days, especially on newish production boats. Just this winter I personally saw two such incidents on my dock. The one in the picture is off a fairly new ( 5 year old, maybe?) 40 foot or so Beneteau.

50-60 knots for about five hours or so. Not that uncommon for a Med storm. Of course the lack of a proper backing plate was probably a contributing factor, but still... to rip out like that? You'd figure the builder would beef up that area of the deck to prevent this sort of thing.

Plastic tubing, or a wrapping of old rags would have prevented the chafe, any kind of backing plates (ideally wood backed with aluminium) would have prevented the cleats ripping out. We get 60 knots gusts here in Mindelo regularly, I have to replace my chafe protection occasionally, but nothing worse, although I am anchored. But sure, blame the weather

[Greg K]

Originally Posted by Captn_Black

Plastic tubing, or a wrapping of old rags would have prevented the chafe, any kind of backing plates (ideally wood backed with aluminium) would have prevented the cleats ripping out. We get 60 knots gusts here in Mindelo regularly, I have to replace my chafe protection occasionally, but nothing worse, although I am anchored. But sure, blame the weather

Swinging on an anchor in 60 knots is a world of difference from being Med moored in such conditions. But, I do think you missed the point of my post, Captn. It's not about blaming the weather but, rather, lamenting what looks like poor engineering of cleat support structure by the manufacturer. And, yes, a hefty backing plate would probably have prevented this.

Just in case you misunderstood my original post, I have never had a cleat rip out, and the cleat in that picture is not from my boat.

[hpeer]

Originally Posted by NSboatman

...all the metal boat owners are loving this thread.

These days, I really only worry about pulling cleats out of docks, not the other way around!

Snort!

[hpeer]

I broke a 16” cleat once. I was removing something stubborn where the bow sprit had been and would be again. In swinging the hammer I tipped a cleat, a healthy ding but no more. The cleat shattered and so did I. Took me a bit to find some SS cleats to replace it with, I replaced the pair. I was shocked at how easily the cleat broke, it was no more than dropping the hammer 3’ into the cleat. These were some kind of cast cleat. It has made me consider replacing the remaining 6 cleats. $$$$

I get all the arguments about how we SHOULD do stuff but stuff happens. For what ever reason things don’t go as planned, lines are led wrong, tied wrong, wrong kind, wrong place, etc. We got caught in the little marina in San Salvador Island, Bahamas. It wasn’t a storm or even heavy wind, the swell just shifted. The dock pilings were substantial telephone poles, you tied up laying along side. By far the worst area was along the fuel dock. The pilings had deep grooves cut in them from lines running, those were the ones that had not snapped. All dock lines doubled up, 3/4” double braid, bar tight and the boat was still riding several feet Forward and back with each surge. 40,000 pound boat. Ruined all our dock lines. We escaped by making a night exit through the surf across the channel. Possibly the worst thing I’ve ever done. Outside was benign.

My point is, and this goes for most things on the boat, the boat is there for you, it exists for you, and you are, like every other human on Earth fallible. Stuff happens. It is wrong to adopt the mindset that you must moor your boat perfectly every single time to avoid disaster. Eventually disaster will strike.

Therefore our boats need to be designed to meet the intended use. This cleat problem is not a big issue on the Chesapeake Bay. So the Bendy is fine there, I guess. But if you wander to other places in a Bendy and stuff happens it’s because the boat was not designed for those conditions.

I’m not criticizing the advice given, I’m just saying no boat, no Captain, is perfect and part of boating is dealing with the stuff that happens. Some deal with it by buying steel boats, some by refitting their cleats, some by buying heavier built boats, some by where they sail, some by doing more repairs. It’s all good as long as it matches you expectation, wallet and ability.

[DeValency]

Originally Posted by Chotu

Where are the backing plates?????

That’s an unbelievably poor cleat installation.

In this case, even a standard backing plate wouldn’t help, unless the backing plate would have been 3”+ wide and at least 3” longer than the cleat to evenly distribute the load. - not enough space for it at these boats design.

As we can see in the picture the clear pulled out a complete piece of a flimsy deck, cosmetically coated with a thin glass. I would expect Beneteau to do much much better than that. At least where cleats and other fittings are installed the deck must be significantly reinforced and glassed at a wide area.

Could this be an add on cleat installed by these “experts” hanging around marinas and boatyards??. I’ve seen horrible cases in the Caribbeans and the Med with such installations, with electrical plumbing, rigging...

[CassidyNZ]

Originally Posted by DeValency

As we can see in the picture the clear pulled out a complete piece of a flimsy deck, cosmetically coated with a thin glass. . . . . . At least where cleats and other fittings are installed the deck must be significantly reinforced and glassed at a wide area.

I agree, it’s interesting that the penny washers under the deck never caused two holes to be pulled through but rather the whole part between the studs. Implies that a backing plate would just have made a bigger hole.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by DeValency

Could this be an add on cleat installed by these “experts” hanging around marinas and boatyards??. I’ve seen horrible cases in the Caribbeans and the Med with such installations, with electrical plumbing, rigging...

There is quite a bit of commissioning work that is carried out by the dealer rather than the manufacturer, not just put the stick on. Wonder if this was one of those items and they missed the re-enforcing, or added a dealer optional extra without thinking it through. How come the cleat only has two bolts for a 40ft yacht.

Pete

[DeValency]

A serious dealer shouldn’t fail like this with an aftermarket job. But who knows?... at any case it doesn’t look like the original factory installation.

In my 14 tons Contest, all cleats, including the 10” have the original two bolts - no issue with that if they are M6-8 in diameter and if they go through 1.5” glass deck reinforced with 1” solid teak top and bottom, they will hold in any conditions. You always want less through deck holes.

Originally Posted by Pete7

There is quite a bit of commissioning work that is carried out by the dealer rather than the manufacturer, not just put the stick on. Wonder if this was one of those items and they missed the re-enforcing, or added a dealer optional extra without thinking it through. How come the cleat only has two bolts for a 40ft yacht.

Pete

[peterlewis19]

This post has worried me for some time as a production boat they should know better - and they do! On relooking at the photos I would like to suggest that this cleat has been fitted aftermarket by the looks of the crap on the end of the threads. No factory would put tap etc on the ends and use a correctly sized thread length for the job in hand - they buy them by the hundreds if not thousand and always get it sized correctly. We need to be careful about what we criticize and be sure of facts. I have a Beneteau 523 an I am amazed at its build quality and detail. As a qualified Aeronautical engineer and notice these things. All be careful before jumping too assumptions! P