Sail condition - How do you tell?

[Jim Cate]

G'day James,

You know, if your plan is to keep the boat on the lake and just try to learn to sail, I don't think all the refurb plans that TrenteP has outlined are really justified.

In that environment, the keel bolts are unlikely to be wasted, and the keel is very unlikely to come off. Really... that is a fear-monger's pet incitement to spend! You are not gonna be exposed to monster seas and even gale force winds sailing on the lake, so IMO ignore the keel worries.

Standing rigging: unless it is visibly failing, with cracked swages and stranded wire, again, don't get too worried about it. Catastrophic failure is pretty damn rare at sea, and rather less so on a freshwater lake. IMO, unless visibly degraded, ignore it.

Running rigging: if the sheets and halyards are not visibly frayed and if the various blocks turn normally, what's there should work just fine. If in practice any of the cordage gets really fuzzy it adds friction, but the strength is primarily in the core in most modern line and a UV damaged cover is unsightly but not needing replacement on a low budget learner boat.

The engine sounds like a jewel for this type of boat. Count yourself lucky! such an engine should last several thousand hours if routine maintenance is done.

The interior: Yep, that sounds like a pig pen! But improving that situation is pretty fiscally easy... ie, little cost to you, but lots of elbow grease and a few trips to the dumpster... nay, a lot of trips! I wouldn't spend money renewing upholstery myself, but simple slip covers or even old beach towels will remove some of the "under the freeway" aspect.

Hull cosmetics: again, no significant expense here, and in fact, it isn't required that your learner boat be "washed and waxed". You are interested in learning to sail, not to exhibit in a concourse. Sail the boat, don't polish it!

And resist the temptation to "upgrade" anything that is not broken. In your 18 month timescale, any such expenditures are nothing but waste... tarting up the boat for the next owner.

So, ownership costs: If she must live in a marina, those costs are unavoidable in general. It will likely be necessary to have third party (liability) insurance in order to get a marina berth, and especially for a beginner, a good idea anyhow. However, such coverage is pretty cheap in general... and for goodness sakes, you don't need hull insurance on a <2K$ boat. Keeping the bottom reasonably clean is fairly important, for a foul bottom spoils the performance of any boat and will add confusing factors to your learning experiences. If you are comfy in the water, you can do it yourself with only snorkel gear and a scraper. Bottom paint will help, and if it is feasible, a coat of locally effective antifouling will be a good investment.

If the boat was a keeper, of if you were planning to race, renewing sails would be appropriate, for they are supremely important in good sailing performance. But for a learner boat, not so important that they be really good. If they are totally shot, replacing with second hand sails is quite inexpensive compared to new, and there are several vendors of such sails in teh US. Bacon in Annapolis, Minney's in California, and doubtless others scattered about. Useful sails can be found for well less than 25% of new cost.

So, I reckon that the scary numbers posted above might be valid for a keeper boat, but not for what you propose... hope that this idea will reduce your blood pressure a few points!

The pages of CF are full of advice for new boat owners and much of it leans toward "making her yours" and improving all things nautical. That's a great hobby, but again IMO, not where you are in your naissance as a sailor. This old Hunter is a tool, not an objet de arte nor a jewel needing polishing... a tool!

Anyhow, I hope this alternative view will be of use to you in your decisions.

Jim

[Jamesiv1]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

G'day James,

You know, if your plan is to keep the boat on the lake and just try to learn to sail, I don't think all the refurb plans that TrenteP has outlined are really justified.

In that environment, the keel bolts are unlikely to be wasted, and the keel is very unlikely to come off. Really... that is a fear-monger's pet incitement to spend! You are not gonna be exposed to monster seas and even gale force winds sailing on the lake, so IMO ignore the keel worries.

Standing rigging: unless it is visibly failing, with cracked swages and stranded wire, again, don't get too worried about it. Catastrophic failure is pretty damn rare at sea, and rather less so on a freshwater lake. IMO, unless visibly degraded, ignore it.

Running rigging: if the sheets and halyards are not visibly frayed and if the various blocks turn normally, what's there should work just fine. If in practice any of the cordage gets really fuzzy it adds friction, but the strength is primarily in the core in most modern line and a UV damaged cover is unsightly but not needing replacement on a low budget learner boat.

The engine sounds like a jewel for this type of boat. Count yourself lucky! such an engine should last several thousand hours if routine maintenance is done.

The interior: Yep, that sounds like a pig pen! But improving that situation is pretty fiscally easy... ie, little cost to you, but lots of elbow grease and a few trips to the dumpster... nay, a lot of trips! I wouldn't spend money renewing upholstery myself, but simple slip covers or even old beach towels will remove some of the "under the freeway" aspect.

Hull cosmetics: again, no significant expense here, and in fact, it isn't required that your learner boat be "washed and waxed". You are interested in learning to sail, not to exhibit in a concourse. Sail the boat, don't polish it!

And resist the temptation to "upgrade" anything that is not broken. In your 18 month timescale, any such expenditures are nothing but waste... tarting up the boat for the next owner.

So, ownership costs: If she must live in a marina, those costs are unavoidable in general. It will likely be necessary to have third party (liability) insurance in order to get a marina berth, and especially for a beginner, a good idea anyhow. However, such coverage is pretty cheap in general... and for goodness sakes, you don't need hull insurance on a <2K$ boat. Keeping the bottom reasonably clean is fairly important, for a foul bottom spoils the performance of any boat and will add confusing factors to your learning experiences. If you are comfy in the water, you can do it yourself with only snorkel gear and a scraper. Bottom paint will help, and if it is feasible, a coat of locally effective antifouling will be a good investment.

If the boat was a keeper, of if you were planning to race, renewing sails would be appropriate, for they are supremely important in good sailing performance. But for a learner boat, not so important that they be really good. If they are totally shot, replacing with second hand sails is quite inexpensive compared to new, and there are several vendors of such sails in teh US. Bacon in Annapolis, Minney's in California, and doubtless others scattered about. Useful sails can be found for well less than 25% of new cost.

So, I reckon that the scary numbers posted above might be valid for a keeper boat, but not for what you propose... hope that this idea will reduce your blood pressure a few points!

The pages of CF are full of advice for new boat owners and much of it leans toward "making her yours" and improving all things nautical. That's a great hobby, but again IMO, not where you are in your naissance as a sailor. This old Hunter is a tool, not an objet de arte nor a jewel needing polishing... a tool!

Anyhow, I hope this alternative view will be of use to you in your decisions.

Jim

Thank you so much Jim. Another awesome post.

And yes.... I believe I am in alignment with the 18-month learner plan. Learn to sail and how to care for a boat, and then when its retirement time, buy a nice cruiser.

A perky little $2000 dollar boat is feeling like it's right up my alley. I think I'll really enjoy cleaning her up and making her look good again.

I'm pretty stoked. If my mechanic guy tomorrow says the engine is in good shape, then I believe I am going to come home a boat owner.

Thank you!!

[TrentePieds]

James:

Quote: "The engine was replaced in 2018 with a Westerbeke 10HP 2cyl. That now has 96 hours on it."

As Jim sez: A nearly new Westie is very fine in this sort of boat. It'll last for the boat's lifetime, or even yours :-), provided it is given maintenance according to the manual. If the manual is not in the boat, you'll no doubt find it on line.

As Jim ALSO sez: Keel bolts are most unlikely to be a problem in a boat that has been kept in fresh water all its life. It is salt water that causes damage (or at least facilitates the damage) because it's an electrolyte. In answer to your direct question: Yes: You inspect, preliminarily, by pulling up the hatches over the bilge and looking at the nuts and washers on the inboard ends of the bolts. If they are clean, there will be no problem. If they are rusty and corroded, there IS a problem. However, the severity of the problem can really only be determined by actually pulling a bolt or two.

Quote: "Ouch Even for a weekender lake boat?"

Hm... Obviously you needn't spend a penny on MAINTENANCE if you don't want to. It is every man's right to let his property go to wrack and ruin. The moorage costs you cite in a previous post seem reasonable to me. Insurance costs are what they are in a given market, but you may want to discuss liability insurance with your agent. Your marina's moorage contract for the boat no doubt specifies precisely what the requirements are for accommodation in that marina. There are two aspects to a marine policy: 1) Hull Insurance, which is the costly bit and not worth paying for on a seventeen-hunnert-dollar boat. 2) Liability insurance which your marina will certainly require. It is possible that LIABILITY insurance for the boat can be added as a rider to your Home Owner's (or Tenant's) insurance. I've no idea if that is possible in Texas, but if so, the additional premium is not likely to be more than a hunnert bux a year.

The reason that I allocate a grand a month is that SOLID maintenance, year after year, must needs include a "sinking fund" for replacement of sails and engine, so the money is in the bank the day the expenditure can no longer be deferred. This method of management is clearly a bit over the top for a boat you intend to dump in a couple of years, particularly one with a nearly new reputable engine. But you may wish to keep it in mind for your "keeper" boat.

And that brings us to a consideration that every boat owner should have in the back of his mind at all times: Being the LAST owner of a boat is never a good idea. Disposal by any other means than selling is always costly. On the other hand, with this particular boat, IF you clean it up - including washing and waxing :-)! - you will in all likelihood be able to give it away, as the present owner appears to be doing [seventeen hunnert, eh :-)!]. You will find another novice to take it off your hands for nearly free. Until you do, moorage costs will, of course continue.

Don't remember that I sang my usual song that "no man should put more money into a boat than he can walk away from with a smile still on his face". If I hadn't before, then I have now :-). The man that can't walk away from seventeenhunnertbux with a smile on his face isn't yet ready to be a boat owner!

So have at it, and all the best to you :-)

TrentePieds

[Jamesiv1]

Just got home from looking at the Hunter 27 for the 2nd time. This time I had money in my pocket. I'm going to pass on it.

It's a lot bigger project than I want to fool with. Tons more than just scrubbing the interior. Nothing electrical worked - no engine, electronics or lights. That might have just been batteries but still LOL

Turns out the engine was only refurbished in 2018, rather than what I thought was a new engine in 2018.

Anyway.... There will be others.

Thanks everyone for all your input. It was very, very helpful.

[JBsurfin]

Originally Posted by Jamesiv1

Thank you everyone for your posts, thoughts and advice. I really appreciate it.

I am actually shopping for my very first sailboat, with plans to do some cruising in a 35-40 footer by the time I retire in a year and a half. Not interested in racing.

My immediate plan has been to get a small boat to learn on. No cabin or overnights, but I would like for it to be sloop-rigged - not sure why lol

But a Hunter 27 has come along that I am interested in. Supposed to go have a look at her tomorrow. The owner says he must pay some medical bills and is only asking $2000 for her. It's a 1984, and the interior needs a good bit of work, but I figure if everything else is in fair condition then I just may have found my learning boat.

Hopefully he's not feeding me a load of BS about it.

Locate a marine surveyor with sailboat experience. When I bought my last one 13yrs ago, my surveyor was a sailor and was able and willing to at least comment about the condition of the sails. As to the boat you're looking at.. an eye of caution. You get what you pay for.. 2K?? ummm.

[Jamesiv1]

Originally Posted by JBsurfin

Locate a marine surveyor with sailboat experience. When I bought my last one 13yrs ago, my surveyor was a sailor and was able and willing to at least comment about the condition of the sails. As to the boat you're looking at.. an eye of caution. You get what you pay for.. 2K?? ummm.

Thanks JBsurfin. On second look she was really a mess. I think it would take several thousand to get her up to scratch, and I don't really want that big a project. I'm holding out for a solid boat ready to sail that needs some cosmetic work. Probably more in the 20-25' range.

Thanks again!

[kmgiunta]

Originally Posted by Jamesiv1

When boat shopping and looking at the sails, how do you tell the difference between a sail in good condition vs. bad condition?

Thanks!

Take the sail(s) in question to a sail loft. It's better than you crawling around on your hands and knees looking at seams and scratching your head. The sailmaker's eye can spot flaws and damage a lot quicker plus the sailmaker knows what the thing is supposed to look like if it's in good shape. It doesn't cost much and it's worth it.

[JimmyDarci]

Advice for inexpensive and smaller boats (25 feet and under, under $10,000, cruising day boat):

For me, IMHO only, this is a dividing line where I would consider doing an inspection, as a novice boater (but generally I'm handy enough with basic tools), versus paying thousands for an inspection. Do both sea trial and inspection. The assumption is that if it sails during a short sea trial, with the owner brave enough to go on, then it will be in relatively safe enough condition and all boats need some repairing - that is part of sailing. Ask the owner questions during the sail. Most owners are proud to discuss their boat and some will slip up and say things that give you clues -- so listen carefully to the answers and how the owner describes things. Do NOT fall in love with the boat (yes, too late, but try hard)

That said, I would do these steps:

Hull inspection -- watch more than a few YouTube videos on how to test the hull, check the pain, wiggle the rudder, look for odd spots that do not look like the rest of the hull (either shape/fairing) or paint color (flaking or touch up) YouTube is awesome and there are videos that walk you through an inspection (again, assuming a smaller boat and money is tight)

Look for rust anywhere/ corrosion anywhere / oxidation anywhere? Take pictures and ask a pro such as a sailmaker/rigger/boatyard guy somebody that knows more than you. A smaller boat has less odds of catastrophic metal failure due to less overall forces but super important to look at where the rig goes into the deck and inside where the rigging connects to the deck (underneath) Again. any signs of metal or fiberglass being touched up or damaged or corroded... get an opinion from a pro. Wiggle stuff, look under everything you can (down below).

Sailing Magazine discussed common failure points on a sailboat and the top two were standing rigging and steering. So, check both of these. Assume you will replace the standing rigging unless owner can prove that it was done in last ten years or so. Or get a rigger to just look at it for you if you want to avoid replacement. Some will look at pictures and tell you what they see but in person inspection is usually best. a friend that sails or a dock neighbor is second best - that usually costs a beer or two. Many will debate all of this, these figures are my personal experiences based upon owning boats of all sizes. Some swear that rigging durability depending upon how much it is sailed.... ok, but I cannot tell that on most boats so I use ten years as a guide. Has standing rigging been replaced in ten years? My insurance company gave me that number.

Steering systems can be really simple on small boats so relatively easy to check if you can see it all. Rudder "tap test" and inspect paint. Wiggle test to see if tight or loose. Check all mounts for rust, corrosion, repair, repaint, oxidation. If wheel steering, then need to look at cables and each pully. Are they clean or in dirty condition, does it turn smoothly? look for signs of wear.

Electronics -- assume they are older and may go at any time unless sure they are new. Simple test. Turn them on - everything and make sure they run. Have owner do this and watch if you don't know how.

Kitchen (Galley) make sure stuff works. Smell? Look for rust and corrosion, water damage. Fridge working? make them turn it all on and keep fridge on during the inspection. Check again at end of the inspection.

The deck. Walk the deck all over. See if it feels spongy or firm. Does it squeak?

Down below. Check the bilge for oil and water, smell? get a pro if you see signs of oil. Smell can be old hoses from the head or leaks in the holding tank or salt water leaking into the hull and down into bilge.

Bedding - check underneath each bed for mold and mildew all over the interior. look for black spots and any deterioration to wooden items or plywood under beds,

Anchors and ropes and chain. Go to the marine store and look what new stuff looks like. Then carefully check out the stuff on your boat. link by link if you want.

Running Rigging deck hardware. Each shackle, bloc and line has a shelf life. Look for wear on anything that moves or slides. Check the lines that uphaul the main sail and the jib. Is anything worn or bent? Check the end of the boom toward the stern - is the outhaul shackle in decent shape? how about the lines?

Sails for cruising /day sailing - the sea trial should test each sail. Then look at all sails up close. Tears, worn versus crisp and crinkly? stitching coming out? repairs can be ok but should not be loose or torn. We restitch our own cruising sails with kevlar thread and they last longer (for cruising only).

Through hull fittings - these are the openings below the waterline. see if each one has a valve and that it easily opens and closes. Look for repair and look for signs of leaks or discoloration. Plastic fittings should not be discolored or too "old" looking. Bronze fittings should not be oxidized or otherwise looking "old" Check bilge for water -- check to see if your boat has a bilge pump -- does it work?

The head. If there is a pump or electric head, use the unit (pour a bottle of fresh water in it with owner's permission) Does unit work? smell? Did owner want to avoid this test? smell test -- the hoses on these units often need replacing after a decade and the smell will be the "old boat smell". Is the cabin open when you got there? Does it smell like Fabrize or perfume? Check the holding tank if you can. Is it metal and corroded/oxidized along the exterior. particularly at the bottom?

Holding tanks for water and diesel? are they full? if not, why not? do they smell? signs of oxidation along the bottom or anywhere? Can you easily replace the tank? is the access decent or would you need to cut stuff out to get to tanks?

Bring a friend -- preferably somebody that knows boats a little or is generally handy.

Cash is king -- if you are a buyer and have cash, use the above inspection points to arrive at a fair price that makes you happy. The boat is all about "happiness" since you are not buying it for work.

For a small boat, the costs of repair can be double or triple quite easily so do not overpay unless "she speaks to you."

Armed with the above, very basic tips, now feel free to fall in love.

The above is the actual advice I gave my son when he bought his first boat. I share this as a partial list of what to look for. Inspectors are better but cost real money that can be used for repairs - no boat is perfect unless you just stepped aboard.

Inboard Engines are their own thing and I always suggest a mechanic check the engine and engine oil.

Hope this list is helpful. My son still owns his boat and he sails it more than he fixes it, five year later.