Sail condition - How do you tell?

[sailor_ed]

There is a common test to determine if the sail cloth has sufficient strength to allow continued use. Take a sewing needle and poke it through the cloth. Holding it perpendicular to the cloth and while keeping the cloth reasonably flat pull the needle along the thread line. If the cloth is in good condition the needle will not tear the cloth. If in poor condition it will not be very hard to create a tear using just moderate force.



Stitching can be tested in a similar way: put the needle under a stitch and lift. I the thread breaks or the stitch line starts to pull out then the thread is too weak.



Of course this does not apply to high tech Kevlar, mylar and similar sails.



Anyone on a budget should look for used sail brokers. There is a good possibility to purchase quality sails at reasonable prices.



Good luck,
Ed

[NedX]

Originally Posted by Jamesiv1

Thanks very much for your post Jammer. I appreciate it!

Yeah... Buying a "learner" boat that I have to sink a lot of money into doesn't appeal to me much. Maybe I should think more about a nice sailing skiff for $2-3K. That might be a better choice until I'm ready for a boat I can go cruising in.

Besides, the Hunter guy isn't returning my calls LOL Maybe he's changed his mind.

If you're really looking for a learner, maybe another thing to do is to take an ASA 101 course at a sailing school that where a membership that costs half of what you were going to pay for that Hunter will let you sail their learner boats.

Not only that, you'll presumably have people there who can show you things you'll need to know when you're learning on your own boat that are tough to do for a beginner ('how to land' comes to mind).

You can still shop for/buy your own boat while you're doing that. Also, if it's a good school/club, there will be people there who have bought boats/cruised/delivered/repaired and can give you advice as part of that membership fee.

Not saying you shouldn't come here for advice, but as a first step, getting out on boats you don't need to care for with people who can help you learn isn't a bad one.

Lots of places also have smaller cruisers that you can step up to once you're comfortable for a pricier membership.

[CAVEAT #1: apologies if you've already done this; a quick read of your posts didn't tell me you have.]

[CAVEAT #2: a lot of people in this forum just got a boat and went sailing, and they seem happy with having done it that way. This is just my $0.02.]

[JPA Cate]

Hello, Jamie,

Pencil test for used up sail material, works for dacron (polyester) sails and nylon (like spinnaker): #2 pencil, moderately sharp. Place perpendicular to the cloth and try to poke it in (like the needle test above). If it goes in easily and tears the cloth, there is almost no life left in the cloth. New sail cloth feels crisp. Old sail cloth looks kind of gray, and feels softer; old nylon feels very soft, and kind of dirty--it is not slick.

However, as mentioned above, there are used sail vendors, and the ratings on the sails accurately reflect how much life they have left. So, to me, sail condition is not a big deal.

Get the Hunter, and start learning. Probably cheaper than classes. You can also be volunteer crew at local club racing (a pleasant social sort of event), and learn more in one season on OPBs (other people's boats) than you are likely to learn in many of the courses you pay for. Which you finish without a boat of your own in which to go sailing. You need to learn the Colregs. Memorize them. There are flash cards to help you memorize the light signals at night. There is stuff you need to know, but some people learn on their own better than in classrooms. Learn the phonetic alphabet for radio communication, too.

Ann

[NedX]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

Hello, Jamie,

Pencil test for used up sail material, works for dacron (polyester) sails and nylon (like spinnaker): #2 pencil, moderately sharp. Place perpendicular to the cloth and try to poke it in (like the needle test above). If it goes in easily and tears the cloth, there is almost no life left in the cloth. New sail cloth feels crisp. Old sail cloth looks kind of gray, and feels softer; old nylon feels very soft, and kind of dirty--it is not slick.

However, as mentioned above, there are used sail vendors, and the ratings on the sails accurately reflect how much life they have left. So, to me, sail condition is not a big deal.

Get the Hunter, and start learning. Probably cheaper than classes. You can also be volunteer crew at local club racing (a pleasant social sort of event), and learn more in one season on OPBs (other people's boats) than you are likely to learn in many of the courses you pay for. Which you finish without a boat of your own in which to go sailing. You need to learn the Colregs. Memorize them. There are flash cards to help you memorize the light signals at night. There is stuff you need to know, but some people learn on their own better than in classrooms. Learn the phonetic alphabet for radio communication, too.

Ann

If you can't decide, listen to Ann, not me. She's smarter.

[Dougtiff]

There is some sail cloth that is soft to start with, to test the cloth, pull on the cloth hard , right angle to the stiching.

[Jamesiv1]

I want to thank everyone very much for your posts.

I went and looked at the Hunter. The exterior was Ok but man oh man the interior was trash LOL It looked like the poor guy had been living on it like a homeless person. Oh man there was so much crap all over the place.

I didn't even have a good look at the sails because the interior grossed me out so bad LOL

I think I'm going to pass on the Hunter and keep looking.

I did find a local sailing club right here in my neighborhood in Dallas. It's a Snipe club. Anybody sailed a Snipe? They look really cool, and they have one for sale for $500 bucks. I'm going to check it out, and check out the sailing club as well. They have a Meet-up scheduled for tonight.

I think something like a Snipe would be good to get my feet wet, and meanwhile keep looking for my dream boat Cruiser.

Thanks again Everyone!!

James in Dallas

[Jammer]

Thanks for the update. So often people in your situation ask for advice and then disappear.


Your feet won't be the only thing that gets wet in a snipe. You will go for a swim whenever you make certain mistakes. For some people this results in rapid learning, for others it's frustrating or frightening and they leave the hobby.

[Jamesiv1]

Thanks Jammer. The sailing club I'm looking at has a fleet you can check out and sail, so I might even wait on the Snipe. It sounds pretty good right now to do some sailing, talk to some folks with experience doing what I want to do (like in this forum), and then be ready to jump when the right boat comes along.

I just want to get in the water and do some sailing!! It's been 35 years since I've been on a sailboat.... I might not even like it anymore LOL

I also just got the plans for a stitch-n-glue dinghy I think I'll build. Buy me some oars, maybe a little outboard and then I'll have my first boat

[searoom]

Hi James,
Small boat sailing is a great way for you to learn some of the basic principles. Especially with a fleet of other Snipe sailors looking to help you along. Dinghy sailing teaches things like weight sensitivity and how it effects the helm and plenty of other stuff that you can apply to a larger keel boat later on. Good luck!
Bob

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by searoom

Small boat sailing is a great way for you to learn some of the basic principles [...] plenty of other stuff that you can apply to a larger keel boat later on.

I think it's worth noting that there are two schools of thought on this.


Many people who come to (or return to) sailing later in life who switch between dinghies and keelboats report that there is little in common between them. I have a friend who took a bunch of lessons in a keelboat and then bought a dinghy and never quite got the hang of it. It sat in his garage all last year. There are also people who start with dinghies and go to keelboats who say the first step was a waste of time and effort.


On the other hand people who really achieve mastery in a dinghy and race (nearly always while young) often go on to be unusually capable sailors of larger boats.


The point being that there are many ways to learn to sail and while starting out in a dinghy is a possible first step it is not the only way and for some people is perhaps not the best way.

[NedX]

Originally Posted by Jammer

I think it's worth noting that there are two schools of thought on this.


Many people who come to (or return to) sailing later in life who switch between dinghies and keelboats report that there is little in common between them. I have a friend who took a bunch of lessons in a keelboat and then bought a dinghy and never quite got the hang of it. It sat in his garage all last year. There are also people who start with dinghies and go to keelboats who say the first step was a waste of time and effort.


On the other hand people who really achieve mastery in a dinghy and race (nearly always while young) often go on to be unusually capable sailors of larger boats.


The point being that there are many ways to learn to sail and while starting out in a dinghy is a possible first step it is not the only way and for some people is perhaps not the best way.

I know places where you learn to sail in a Rhodes 19 or a J-22 or a Sonar 23 or (the best one in my biased opinion) a Soling 27. Those, especially the last three with the fixed keels, translate a lot better to sailing starter cruisers like that Hunter you were eyeing.

Parton my stalking, but I took the liberty of checking out what's available in Dallas, and I noticed that there's a J-22 association at one of the lakes. I wonder if they have a school. Not only would you learn skills that will translate to boats like that Hunter 28; you'd also learn how to blow by them like they were dead in the water going upwind.

[searoom]

I would agree guys. Maybe mixing it up between some dinghy sailing for the experience and smaller keelboats to help transition would be a good education. Cheers.

[Jamesiv1]

So I'm thinking about pulling the trigger on the Hunter 27. The guy said he would take $1700 for it. It needs an impeller, the roller furling "needs some work", and the interior is full of trash. I'm going to have another look tomorrow, meeting a diesel mechanic there who is going to give the engine a good once over. Engine clock thingy says its got 96 hours on it.

I called about a survey, was quoted $675. I'm hesitant to spend that much on a $1700 boat..?

The dang marina slip is $375/month. That seems like a lot??

[TrentePieds]

James:

I'm coming in late, I know, and much of what needs to be said has already been said. Let me add this, though:

The Hunter 27 is NOT a difficult boat to sail. It is quite an easy boat to learn on. That the particular specimen is mucky below is of no consequence whatever. Just muck it out and wash all hard surfaces with an appropriate cleaner. Soapy water (dish washer detergent followed by a wipe with clean water, and then another wipe with vinegar) goes a long, long way. Cushions can be spot cleaned and aired. So the state of the universe below decks is not worth getting in a sweat over.

96 hours on the engine is maybe true, maybe not. If it is, a change of the suspect impeller (for the raw cooling water, I take it) is dead simple, and it's a skill you need to acquire, so that is not a deal breaker either. Do test start the engine. If it starts easily, the 96 hours may well be true. SailboatData sez the engine in these was a Renault. Renaults would no doubt be difficult to get parts for, but if the engine was swapped out for, say, a Beta, 96 hours ago you'll be just fine. to have a professional replace the engine with a new Beta would cost ten or eleven grand.

A difficult engine start may be due to defunct batteries. Batteries are "consumables". A Hunter 27 sailed by a novice can get by with two 27 series Marine Deep Cycle batteries. These are really deep cycle. That's marketing fluff. They are just dickied-up automobile starter batteries, but a pair of them should last three or four years at a cost of say US$200.

Standing rigging is the sort of thing you do yourself one bit at a time. If you put some thought into it, you can do the re'n're of individual bits yourself after having a new bit made up by a rigging shop. That is if the terminals are swaged. It they are mechanical fittings, you can can change them yourself. Again, doing that is a skill that every cruiser should have.

Running rigging is another easily repaired thing, and for a boat costing 2 grand, just bite the bullet and replace what needs to be replaced. Blocks, and such, are relatively expensive but don't often need replacing, but if they do you can do it yourself. Rope is also fairly expensive, but is easy to swap out. Standard practice is to "demote" line in high stress applications, to less stressful uses until a given bit of rope is conclusively worn out. When it is, you can make fenders and "puddings" from it :-)

Fibreglass hulls have to be ASSISSINATED when you want to end their lives. They never croak on their own. So hull maintenance really just amounts to keeping her bottom clean and her topsides washed and waxed. Bottom cleaning may require a haul-out, but I do that only every three years. Sacrificial zincs can be change by a diver every year at far less cost than a haul-out.

When you look at the boat, the REALLY important thing to have a look at is the condition of the keel bolts where they come through into the bilge. To change keel bolts is not a job for a new owner, so if the bolts are suspect, they should be changed by a professional, and the price should be reduced to reflect the cost of that.

If the keel bolts and the engine are alright, then EVERYTHING else is fixable by yourself, little by little as time and budget allow.

Having said all that, I must tell you that the annual OWNERSHIP costs of TrentePieds (a 30 footer obviously) are still Can$1,000/month here in the Salish Sea. Costs vary according to location, but do not be blind to the fact that if you buy the Hunter for two grand, then your personal budget should permit of allocating US$10,000 to the boat in the first year of ownership, and probably about US$8,000 every year thereafter for as long as you own the boat.

All the best to you.

TrentePieds

[Jamesiv1]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

When you look at the boat, the REALLY important thing to have a look at is the condition of the keel bolts where they come through into the bilge. To change keel bolts is not a job for a new owner, so if the bolts are suspect, they should be changed by a professional, and the price should be reduced to reflect the cost of that.

If the keel bolts and the engine are alright, then EVERYTHING else is fixable by yourself, little by little as time and budget allow.

Hi TrentePieds,

Thanks so much for your thoughtful post. Very much appreciated!!

The engine was replaced in 2018 with a Westerbeke 10HP 2cyl. That now has 96 hours on it.

The boat is in the water on a freshwater lake in North Texas... How do I determine the keel bolt condition? Just pull up the flooring panels and have a good look at them?

My plan is to have a learner boat (like this one) for a year and a half until I retire in Summer 2022. Then buy a good solid cruiser and head out.

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

Having said all that, I must tell you that the annual OWNERSHIP costs of TrentePieds (a 30 footer obviously) are still Can$1,000/month here in the Salish Sea. Costs vary according to location, but do not be blind to the fact that if you buy the Hunter for two grand, then your personal budget should permit of allocating US$10,000 to the boat in the first year of ownership, and probably about US$8,000 every year thereafter for as long as you own the boat.

Ouch Even for a weekender lake boat?