Rugged High Latitude Boats?

[Matt Johnson]

Originally Posted by jmh2002

Yes, it's an interesting boat but I'm not sure that all of the design choices are valid but in the end many decisions become a compromise in one way or another.

I just read the article and the "ideas" designed into the boat.... I had missed a lot of those "features" from the launch photos last year. While some may have valid reasoning, a lot are compromises that I wouldn't expect in a boat built for this job. But the designer does have a lot of experience, so what do I know?

Matt

[jmh2002]

It's not a bug, it's a feature...

[OceanSeaSpray]

Originally Posted by jmh2002

Yes, it's an interesting boat but I'm not sure that all of the design choices are valid, In the end many decisions become a compromise in one way or another.

I would concur with this. When you have a displacement of 50 tonnes for just 20 metres of boat length, the shape you give it is "somewhat secondary". You have got a heavy tub that is not going to move under sail without a stiff breeze.
The "9-knot" passage speed is a joke for a "high-performance" boat of that size. A lot of it would need to be sustained using the engine, because there are an awful lot of light winds out there...

I would call this another styling/marketing exercise in the field of the so-called expedition yachts, the politically correct way of referring to these do-it-all not-good-at-anything overweight designs with oversized fuel tanks.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by OceanSeaSpray

I would concur with this. When you have a displacement of 50 tonnes for just 20 metres of boat length, the shape you give it is "somewhat secondary". You have got a heavy tub that is not going to move under sail without a stiff breeze.
The "9-knot" passage speed is a joke for a "high-performance" boat of that size. A lot of it would need to be sustained using the engine, because there are an awful lot of light winds out there...

I would call this another styling/marketing exercise in the field of the so-called expedition yachts, the politically correct way of referring to these do-it-all not-good-at-anything overweight designs with oversized fuel tanks.

+1


The more I look at Quilak, the uglier it seems to me. I am surprised that KM Yachts agreed to build such a monstrosity.



That is certainly not what I want. Large fuel tanks don't necessarily spoil the D/L ratio, and that's not the problem with this boat. A couple of tons of diesel is no big deal over a 20 meter waterline. The problem with Quilak (the first problem, of many) is that it packs too much volume into that length. It's a BUFF. It's a big commercial charter boat (not a private yacht) which needs 6 - 8 more meters of LOA to make a reasonably svelte hull form.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Breaking Waves

yes, I understand. He is also actually a sailor at heart (see quote below) and did his first voyaging sailing (on a Huisman as his 2nd sailboat)

but in the build and fitout you might learn things .... he is both a smart engineer and rather real-world experienced.

He is no luddite - just for example put Transporter Energy lithium-ion batteries during his latest refit.

But he also said "But my passion is still sailing boats. When I’m in port I go round looking at details. It intrigues me. One day I would like to design a perfect sailing boat. The ideal size would be 46ft. Most boats these days are far too sophisticated. I threw out the hot water system and desalinator. It all goes wrong.”

The details on the boat for things like window construction and ventilation are spectacular. He had no major failures in essentially 3 continuous circumnavigations (I'm not sure after that).

Continuously welded stringers (rather than tacked like most) and every weld ultrasounded every cm.

Just random pics
Attachment 191856
Attachment 191860
Attachment 191857
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Attachment 191858

ps Designer: Dennis Davidson of Murry Cormack Associates Scotland
Builder: New Century Marine Scotland

Gorgeous build. I did read the book, although his companion was really technically knowledgeable.






Sounds like you know him?

[OceanSeaSpray]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

+1

The more I look at Quilak, the uglier it seems to me. I am surprised that KM Yachts agreed to build such a monstrosity.

They seem to build anything that has got money in it, but that is true of most yards and most design offices are also on the same track.

Originally Posted by Dockhead

That is certainly not what I want. Large fuel tanks don't necessarily spoil the D/L ratio, and that's not the problem with this boat. A couple of tons of diesel is no big deal over a 20 meter waterline. The problem with Quilak (the first problem, of many) is that it packs too much volume into that length. It's a BUFF. It's a big commercial charter boat (not a private yacht) which needs 6 - 8 more meters of LOA to make a reasonably svelte hull form.

Performance comes down to sail area/displacement ratio when it comes to speed potential with sufficient wind, and sail area/wetted surface when it comes to light wind performance. For a cruising boat, the latter tends to be more important because if this is too low, you will be motoring a lot. A boat with a large rig for a modest wetted surface is fast in light winds and doesn't need large fuel tanks.

When cruising, the key to fast passages is not how fast you can go, it is how slow you don't go.

The reality is that only so much sail area can be fitted on so many metres of boat length. Modern "flat" hull shapes have more form stability and the potential for carrying a larger rig, but at the cost of a greater wetted surface. In order to get benefits out of the hull shape, the length/displacement needs to be high enough and it must be possible to lift some of the hull out of the water when heeled etc. All these tubs with wide sterns and racy-looking lines are too deep and too heavy to be able to achieve that, so they get penalised by it. It makes them fat and inefficient and an old Swan - designed for sailing - would outperform them any day.

[Bigmarv]

Originally Posted by OceanSeaSpray

I would concur with this. When you have a displacement of 50 tonnes for just 20 metres of boat length, the shape you give it is "somewhat secondary". You have got a heavy tub that is not going to move under sail without a stiff breeze.
The "9-knot" passage speed is a joke for a "high-performance" boat of that size. A lot of it would need to be sustained using the engine, because there are an awful lot of light winds out there...

I would call this another styling/marketing exercise in the field of the so-called expedition yachts, the politically correct way of referring to these do-it-all not-good-at-anything overweight designs with oversized fuel tanks.

50 tonnes is heavy for an conventional displacement 60' boat, but very very heavy for one drawn with that shape. Almost hard to believe.

Agree regarding "expedition yachts". Lots of them are basically just doing a bus ride up and down from the ice where sails are a sometimes thing and where full schedules mean the engine comes on whenever time would otherwise be lost. Upwind and light wind sailing takes a hiding.

Your boat is totally different and your philosophy has a lot to recommend it (even if a pilot house gets pretty appealing when it's cold, as does shallow draft down where they operate). Ever going to sell?

[OceanSeaSpray]

Originally Posted by Bigmarv

Your boat is totally different and your philosophy has a lot to recommend it (even if a pilot house gets pretty appealing when it's cold, as does shallow draft down where they operate). Ever going to sell?

You could tweak things to create a bit of pilot house, but unless you just cover the front of the cockpit, the interior layout would take a hit. It is not a deep hull at all, you are standing just 200mm below the waterline down-below. There is not enough vertical clearance for a multi-level layout. All in one single plane with the windows at head height.

Selling? I don't think so! I don't want any other boat. You are welcome to build one however, it is a good project!

[WTRacer]

I'm also not a fan of Qilak based on what I've seen.


Assuming the article is correct from Yachting World, it's also constructed using Sealium, supposedly ~20% lighter than traditional 5083. Given much of the hull plating is "only" 10mm there must surely be some very heavy construction elsewhere.

[Matt Johnson]

The framing is pretty stout, but I still don't believe it could add up to 100,000 lbs. This has to be a typo.

Matt

[real_goat]

33.5 tonnes



Other designs 66 Qilak / KM Yachtbuilders

[Tabaqui]

I like the Grand Integral
Nanuq - the boat
Fast, crewquarters (sort of) and seems to work well in ice.

18tons in comparison to Qilak. I do realize the look is not for everyone tho
Met a frenchman with an Integral 43 in Belfast last summer. He had spent several seasons with it in Greenland, didnt like the heat and crowd further south and was on his way back north. Loved the boat.

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by funjohnson

Another KM built boat that Dockhead probably saw during his visit to the yard last year.

Only thing I don't like about it is the longitudinal seating in the pilothouse... on a charter boat where everyone is trying to see what is going on outside, why would the put the seating so low as to require standing to see out the ports?

Matt

This audience is tough .

If you sat in the captain’s leather, electrically adjustable pilot house chair with its pneumatic suspension, facing a bank of instruments, with a clear view over the top of the charter guests so that you could spot icebergs while sailing, I think some of the criticism would be replaced by lust .

The charter guests are not short changed. The views through the large pilothouse windows where Qilak will sail will be amazing.

Then there is the jet tender housed in the garage below the cockpit, the beautiful spacious engine room, multiple watertight doors, lithium battery bank, even a sauna etc etc.

Qilak is a world away from type of boats most of us own, but as a vessel designed to take a small number of charter guests to sail in most inhospitable and dangerous regions of world as safely as possible, it certainly meets its design brief.

[Erik de Jong]

Originally Posted by Steamer

If there are ice conditions, then 18 meters built for polar expedition could suit

That is the boat that is used by Manu and Gishlan for their (ant)arctic projects.
https://www.underthepole.com/?lang=en

Definitely not the most suitable boat for high latitudes, but it was what was available and what they could make work, and they have made it work!

Bestevears are great, but there is not one the same as another, so don't judge the 'type' after having seen only one or two of them.

@ TS, when you want to build a new boat, pay the few percent extra that it will cost to make your own design. For a completely new scratch design you pay about 5-6% of the building cost, for alterations to an existing design you can often count on just paying the building rights to the designer (usually between 1 and 3% of building cost). For your desires I would first talk to Dykstra and partners in Amsterdam, they are one of the few design offices in the world that know about high latitude sailing and where the designers actually take the boats out themselves to learn from those experiences.

As for high latitude yachts themselves that are meant for going in ice:
- Ice reinforcement should be all around, not just in the bow.
- Twin propellers are an absolute no-go.
- Twin rudders are an absolute no-go.
- Multiple water tight bulkheads to survive single compartment flooding as a minimum, better is dual compartment flooding, though that is harder to achieve in boats smaller than 60 to 65 foot.
- Have a system that allows you to place an emergency rudder from deck.
- Insulation anywhere, not just to the waterline.
- Bilge ventilation in each compartment is a must.
- Get a stainless propeller.
- Oversize the propshaft and add a torsion limiter somewhere int he drive train.
- Consider dry exhaust, or build a rawwater inlet/strainer system that can be reverse flushed when blocked with brash ice.
- Double pane windows throughout, but absolutely no tinting of windows.
- Add blue light search lights with beams that go as far as a mile ahead of the boat.
- Fuel capacity is based on time spend on board (heating) rather than distance that needs to be motored, requires a slightly different way of thinking.

I can probably come up with another 100 points that will make your life easier once in the ice. A lot of those I found out myself the hard way during 22 years of sailing in the high and extreme latitudes.

[Steamer]

TS should also keep in mind POLAR CODE REQUIREMENTS sooner or later to be implemented to polar and pre-polar YACHTING.