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CaptJamesCook · 02-06-2017, 20:20

Softdown
Thank you for your insight I saw some flexible panels that looked to be sewn in to a soft bimini cover. Thought that would be good. I do hear you about longevity though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lamadriver

couple of quick comments.

first I think your putting the cart before the horse as from reading the first post you dont own the boat yet.

One bit of advice i give everyone is once you buy the boat, go sail the thing, dont worry about upgrades and adding things until you have some time using the boat. Your preception for needs and wants 6 months after sailing/ living on it will be very different than at purchase.

Everything is a compromise

Not really. More like getting the horse to know the cart before I feed it a carrot. But yes I agree life is a flow that you have to ride before you can try to improve. The information everyone has given so freely here has helped ME to plan what may or may not be needed. I figure a two week shake down cruise and the determine what I will really need. I am just checking to see if those items are feasible to fit on the BI 40.

Wind generator would fit okay. Some solar but still working on type, amount and location. Watermaker size and loction. Generator I don't think even possible. Wind vane/hydro vane which one if needed and whether it would work with a yawl rig.(one nice thing about the yawl is that Mizzen IMHO) I would rather be told no it won't fit now than after I purchase. Wouldn't you? Just attempting to gathering from fellow mariners that may have been there done that. OOPS!~
Thank you for your imput.

Lrak · 03-06-2017, 03:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by CooksFraming

Generator I don't think even possible.

What do you need the generator for? While gasoline and not built in, one of the Honda/Yamaha 2000 series suitcase generators will power a watermaker OR microwave OR 100A battery charger. Others have mounted one on deck.

**Dockhead** · 03-06-2017, 03:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by CooksFraming

It is a good looking design..

Dockhead
[quote/]The main drawback of the Pearson for long distance cruising was she was S L O W. The stubby rig (50' like the Block Island), longish keel, and short (30') waterline meant she sailed like a bathtub. The Block Island with that full keel, even shorter waterline, and barn door rudder, will be even tubbier.[quote/]

The Pearson is handicaped at 210 compared to the BI40 at 162 PHRF New England Handicaping. She is a little faster.
But I do get what you are saying. I never was a good fair weather sailor even on lake Erie. I went out when most hugged the docks... You learn more in high winds than breezes.
Thanks for reassuring me about room for provisions and gear.

The advantage of that hull form is that she will have a seakindly motion and will be pretty good in strong weather, compared to lighter and faster boats of the same size. So that's the tradeoff.

You won't have a problem with space -- any more than the rest of us do. There's never enough of it, but you'll manage.

**Dockhead** · 03-06-2017, 03:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by CooksFraming

Softdown
Thank you for your insight I saw some flexible panels that looked to be sewn in to a soft bimini cover. Thought that would be good. I do hear you about longevity though.
. .

Wind generator would fit okay. Some solar but still working on type, amount and location. Watermaker size and loction. Generator I don't think even possible. Wind vane/hydro vane which one if needed and whether it would work with a yawl rig.(one nice thing about the yawl is that Mizzen IMHO) I would rather be told no it won't fit now than after I purchase. Wouldn't you? Just attempting to gathering from fellow mariners that may have been there done that. OOPS!~
Thank you for your imput.

I have experience with both wind and solar. Wind was utterly useless on my boat; solar was brilliant and easily supplied all our needs (on our previous boat). BUT, solar is really hard to mount on a monohull without creating huge windage problems. That's why I don't have it on my present boat, which we worked hard to optimize for long distance sailing upwind. On a boat like the Block Island, like on our old Pearson, you won't care as much about windage, so you might mount normal hard panels above the bimini (say). You can also mount them above davits, as we did, but I don't know if that would work on a yawl or whether you plan to have davits. Yet another possible mounting location is on swing-out mounts on the lifelines.

Instead of a generator of any kind, consider a jumbo alternator, externally regulated, best of all a second alternator, leaving the stock one in place to charge a completely separate start battery. We have one of these, and whenever we are moving at all, that is, using the engine even for short periods, it supplies all of our electrical needs, even on an electric-intensive boat with washer/dryer, partial electric cooking, and lots of other electrical gear. We also have a heavy duty diesel generator, but it only gets used if we are anchored longer than just overnight. The school bus alternator is brilliant. Combined with solar I doubt if you would need anything else.

OceanSeaSpray · 03-06-2017, 15:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by CooksFraming

Softdown
Thank you for your insight ... Not really. More like getting the horse to know the cart before I feed it a carrot. But yes I agree life is a flow that you have to ride before you can try to improve. The information everyone has given so freely here has helped ME to plan what may or may not be needed. I figure a two week shake down cruise and the determine what I will really need. I am just checking to see if those items are feasible to fit on the BI 40.

Wind generator would fit okay. Some solar but still working on type, amount and location. Watermaker size and loction. Generator I don't think even possible. Wind vane/hydro vane which one if needed and whether it would work with a yawl rig.(one nice thing about the yawl is that Mizzen IMHO) I would rather be told no it won't fit now than after I purchase. Wouldn't you? Just attempting to gathering from fellow mariners that may have been there done that. OOPS!~
Thank you for your input.

A two-week shake down cruise?? You must be joking.

The best advice you have received here is to change nothing, go sailing for 6 months (cruising, not hanging around in marinas) and then re-assess if anything needs done. Sail the boat, in all kinds of weather, get to know what it can do, get to know what you can do with what you have got and see if there are actually any gaps.

The situation you are in is not uncommon. I see it all the time and I have been there myself with a 30' sloop in the early days. A constant seems to be that the more funding new owners have available, the more costly the errors they make.
Many so-called offshore boats leave less seaworthy than they were before being "prepared". In the process, they also become needlessly complicated and much more expensive to maintain. You really don't need a watermaker when you can have seawater at the sink and a water tank">fresh water tank.

When it comes to the boat itself, the more sail area you have for a given wetted surface, the better it will sail in light winds and the less you will be motoring or rolling around going nowhere. Sailing in light winds is most of what you end up doing while ocean cruising.

If you are really intent on sailing offshore, then pick a boat that can really sail. Comfort is something you can dial as you wish by adjusting boat speed and course angle at times, if needed. If you are on a sea-going bathtub, there is nothing you can do about it and pitching and rolling in the sea are anything but comfortable. Hulls with a long waterline pitch a lot less and move a lot more smoothly, especially upwind.

Try getting aboard a few different boats before you buy something. There is a large gap between beliefs and reality and reality is what is out there, at sea.

lamadriver · 03-06-2017, 15:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by OceanSeaSpray

A two-week shake down cruise?? You must be joking.

Wasnt going to touch that one after my first well received comment

OSS your right on .. I too was guilty of overthinking what was needed or could be improved and i spent money in places where ti was a waste.

I think your also very correct about boat selection. Id rather have longer waterline, and one that sails well in light air then hobby horse in a "sea going bath tub"- that was awesome btw.........

I woudnt be concerned about pretty or "nice lines" I want funtion, speed, seaworthyneess.

As singlehander I would stay away from a yawl or ketch rigged boat.....

CaptJamesCook · 03-06-2017, 16:20

OceanSeaSpry
Thanks for the imput. I understand your response.

I did not include I will be mostly single handed sailing. Also I have sailed for over 15 years on several diff. boats 27' to 32' older Hunters and Catalinas my oversite. Nothing like the design or size of the BI 40.
However, I have not done any cruises over an extended time where I could not make land fall if needed within 24 hours.. This will be new to me. Thus the questions. With the suggestions from salts like your self I think in a two week time on boat I could make some good estimates. I realize there is a big difference between what you would need not just what you want. I like to live by the KISS theory.

I have been on several diff. boats lately. This one is on my very short list. I am trying to make sure it is what I need not just what I want.
Thanks again for you imput.

**Jim Cate** · 03-06-2017, 16:26

[QUOTE]As singlehander I would stay away from a yawl or ketch rigged boat...../QUOTE]

At the risk of being flamed, I must say that if I was wanting to outfit a vessel for long passages short handed, and wanted to maximize reliability, I too would avoid either a yawl or a ketch where the mizzen boom overhung the transom, thus making a wind vane awkward or impossible to fit and use.

The usefulness of a yawl's mizzen is questionable under many points of sail, and one sees a great many such rigs being sailed as sloops in the real world. Yet, there are many who loudly praise such rigs, and they do have some advantages... just another of the many compromises that go into cruising boats.

I am reminded of a famous statement made by (IIRC) one of the Stevens brothers..."show me a yawl and I can improve both its looks and its performance with an ax" (or something like that). The yawl rig was popularized some years ago when it gave an advantage under the racing ratings in use at the time... a situation where the mizzen reduced performance somewhat less than it reduced the rating, thus providing a net corrected time advantage. Not much relationship to ocean cruising!

I doubt if the above will have the slightest impact on JC's opinions or desires, and truthfully I don't want to have such an influence. He is entitled to his opinions and prejudices and getting between any man and his lust object (boat, woman or whatever) is unkind and ill advised! So, James Cook (reincarnate??) best wishes for a successful hunt for the boat of your dreams, and good sailing to you!

Jim

Sailmonkey · 03-06-2017, 16:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by lamadriver

As singlehander I would stay away from a yawl or ketch rigged boat.....

And why!????

I race out ketch informally singlehanded. It's no more a problem than a sloop singlehanded.

lamadriver · 03-06-2017, 17:46

Singlehanded Cruising.......... not racing

IMO you dont gain anything in performance but add a great deal of complexity especially to the single handed cruiser. there is really no significant or any sail area gain out of the rig if you look at sailplans for similar sized yachts. I dont believe as a cruising boat the Yawl's mizzen is useful or has any advantage

What you do gain is an extra sail, extra running rigging, extra rigging, and extra mast. all of which have to be maintained. All of which require attention while sailing and in unexpected or heavy conditions. Any of which that fails adds a complexity at sea.

I already heard the acronym KISS thrown around.........

the Op states he plans of a few years offshore passage making, I dont know about you but before i go on a passage i go up the rig, every time....I dont want to go up two masts.. call me lazy.

More reasons:

It is difficult, or impossible, or useless due to wind shadowing-disturbance to install some sort of self steering gear which IMO is must have.

It creates challenges for mounting antennas, wind generators and solar.

The yawl also creates challenges storing and having easy access to a tender and motors . Yes it can be done on halyards and spinpoles on the foredeck and the like but it is way easier shorthanded to have the dingy hanging off the back ( while in cruise mode) on a system that takes minimal effort to hoist and lower.

Remember that is your daily driver, your car, your taxi. Your not going to a marina every night in the western pacific. its has to be easy to use so you may enjoy the places you have sailed too.

In the past I've observed ( meant with no disrespect) older couples and cruisers who weren't as strong or as agile as they once were who didn't have an easy way to launch recover their tender have their quality of life effected by their inability to get off the boat and enjoy their surroundings easily.

Personally after having a boat with a sugar scoop transom it I would never own another cruising boat with out one. I enjoy being in the water while in the tropics and being able be to on and off the boat with ease is key. Its also so much easier moving stuff from the tender to the boat ( groceries, beer, pretty women).

I think people totally leave ease of getting in and out of the boat at anchor out of the equation when considering purchase. The reality is 99% of the time cruising ( especially the WP) your at anchor. So for the above reasons and more not worth listing the Yawl or ketch is out for me as a singelhander.......

Sailmonkey · 03-06-2017, 18:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by lamadriver

What you do gain is an extra sail, extra running rigging, extra rigging, and extra mast. all of which have to be maintained. All of which require attention while sailing and in unexpected or heavy conditions. Any of which that fails adds a complexity at sea.

I already heard the acronym KISS thrown around.........

It is difficult, or impossible, or useless due to wind shadowing-disturbance to install some sort of self steering gear which IMO is must have.

It creates challenges for mounting antennas, wind generators and solar.

We've got a windvane on our ketch, works well (photos posted in a prior post on this thread).

The mizzen sail takes very little attention, it allows one to just drop the main instead of feeding.

Imho the mizzen doesn't create an obstacle for mounting of antennae or wind gens or the like, it provides an ideal spot to do it!

However I will agree that it does make using the dinghy more of a hassle than a walk through transom would.

OceanSeaSpray · 03-06-2017, 18:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by CooksFraming

OceanSeaSpry
Thanks for the imput. I understand your response.

I did not include I will be mostly single handed sailing. Also I have sailed for over 15 years on several diff. boats 27' to 32' older Hunters and Catalinas my oversite. Nothing like the design or size of the BI 40.
However, I have not done any cruises over an extended time where I could not make land fall if needed within 24 hours.. This will be new to me. Thus the questions. With the suggestions from salts like your self I think in a two week time on boat I could make some good estimates. I realize there is a big difference between what you would need not just what you want. I like to live by the KISS theory.

I have been on several diff. boats lately. This one is on my very short list. I am trying to make sure it is what I need not just what I want.
Thanks again for you input.

A lot of experience is gained when you happen to be on the water and you would rather not be there: this is where stretching the distance can change everything. When shelter is nearby, all the good opportunities are lost.

Even if you already had all the experience you wanted, with a new boat it would take you a good 6 months of hard cruising to figure out what you had in your hands. There is no way you will find the range of conditions and situations you need in "two weeks". Trust me.

For a single-hander, your most important piece of equipment should be your windvane. Anything that is going to deter from vane performance should be eliminated without a second thought, starting with the yawl rig. I have put around 70000NM on a Windpilot Pacific. I never take the helm at sea, ever. I don't have (or even want) an electric pilot either. Today I see many "backup" Hydrovanes, which people don't use, maybe because I still need to come across a boat where it actually steers decently and consistently... A poor solution with a bad backup doesn't make for any outcome worth having and it applies to more than just self-steering.

You would do yourself a huge favour if you picked a boat with a reasonably modern hull shape, rather than one with the pinched stern lines, short waterline and nasty rudder arrangement of the BI40. It won't be an interesting boat in a following sea. It also has little form stability and an undersized rig... heel hard to develop power and struggle forever in light weather.
There is a huge difference between a 30' and 40' at sea. You should sail on some 40' before deciding anything and don't skip over the modern ones. Get a feel for the different hull shapes, there are really good reasons why boats have changed.

AiniA · 03-06-2017, 19:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by CooksFraming

Ainia thank you for the insight. I have been doing the numbers on solar but do not have it down yet. I will look at the Monitor vanes.
Sorry to see your selling... Upgrading or landlocking?

Not to deflect, but we are slightly downsizing and moving to a more performance oriented boat. The short list at this point consists of J/42, Sabre 405, and Sabre 425 - we are looking for a performance boat since we really hate motoring. I guess in displacement it is a major downsize though. We will keep the boat in the Caribbean for the next several years and then come back to the Great Lakes. Probably not crossing any more oceans although Scotland and the Baltic is certainly an attractive prospect, but don't tell me wife. One of the neat things about extended cruising is the freedom you feel. When we were in South Africa we talked at considerable length about whether to go to Europe or to the Caribbean and then back to Canada. The latter won.