Old vs. NEW Sailboats for Cruising

[sailorboy1]

Well my 18 year Hunter fell apart 4 times just last week, but I put it back together 10 times. Somehow the math doesn't add up. Oh well this has become the standard BS popular on forums. It's entertainment, not facts.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

Well my 18 year Hunter fell apart 4 times just last week, but I put it back together 10 times. Somehow the math doesn't add up. Oh well this has become the standard BS popular on forums. It's entertainment, not facts.

Never let facts get in the way of a good story!

As I said, I was indoctrinated to believe the old boat is built better narrative BUT being out their for quite sometime now and going places has beyond a doubt proven to me that my programmed beliefs were just fairytales backed by not much.

[botanybay]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

One of the major problems with newer boats is that they are designed and built for sitting in marinas, not crossing oceans. They have wide open cabins and not enough handholds. They don't have any sea berths.

I would say SOME newer boats. There are many well built older boats, many well built newer boats. What has happened is better engineering and understanding of composite materials allowing the naval architect to design to a purpose rather than just add more glass just in case.

Building for offshore costs more, look at Amel, Oyster, Hylas, nauticat, and many more. New builds designed for serious offshore, purpose built for that use and still very comfortable in port.

Are other vessels strong enough, I suspect most are stronger than their crews, look for a history of successful passages,

You pay your money and make your choices...

[TonyDove]

The only significant 'evidence' I've seen of 'newer' boats being inferior actually relates to a few production series back in the early 2000s. Hopefully they have been fixed since then. The problem was that the internal bulkheads, trim etc. were 'fixed' in place by nothing more than a bead of sealant. When the hull flexed beyond the stretchability of the sealant … the interior would come adrift. This was particularly the case in heavy weather. I won't mention the name of the brand that featured most often in these claims – I don't want to fight a law-suit.

Of course there were also the issues of 'older' new-ish boats (mostly dating back to circa 1980s) suffering more from osmosis & de-lamination. Again, this tended to be some brands / production series.

Get a quality surveyor (preferably one who has been around a while … not just fresh out of surveyor school) to check any prospective purchase.

Happy Sailing.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by TonyDove

The only significant 'evidence' I've seen of 'newer' boats being inferior actually relates to a few production series back in the early 2000s. Hopefully they have been fixed since then. The problem was that the internal bulkheads, trim etc. were 'fixed' in place by nothing more than a bead of sealant. When the hull flexed beyond the stretchability of the sealant … the interior would come adrift. This was particularly the case in heavy weather. I won't mention the name of the brand that featured most often in these claims – I don't want to fight a law-suit.

Happy Sailing.

There's a new word "evidence "......in the last 30 years how many production boats have been built? how much evidence is there to back the claims like "not bluewater or wont be around in 20 years?"

Theres alot non evidence backed "facts" around.

[Joli]

All boats are an amalgamation of parts that wear out. You can maintain the parts to extend their life but eventually you will need to replace them. If you buy new, the parts are new and you should enjoy many years of lower maintenance costs. The question to ask is, is it better to spend the money on replacing parts on an older boat or is it better to absorb the depreciation of a new boat? Only the owner can answer this.

[double u]

“Back when fiberglass was an emerging boat building material, no one really knew how long it would last, so they over built the hull thickness, which on the surface sounds great!.....BUT.....what happened in reality was that the laminates were often resin starvedz“
FINALLY somebody is writing this! I can't stand this ...“in the good old days, when hulllaminates were 15“ thick...“ BS any more. They might have been that thick, but there was chopper gun layup, non climatized shed, ...haphazard mixing of resin/hardener,...what not. Thickness is only ONE parameter of fibreglass laminates!

[surf_km55]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

One of the major problems with newer boats is that they are designed and built for sitting in marinas, not crossing oceans. They have wide open cabins and not enough handholds. They don't have any sea berths.

Blah, blah, blah.

[Ibetitsthisway]

Originally Posted by roverhi

Boats with bulbs or vertical keel and rudder faces that can hook and trap debris are an automatic non starter for me unless you like mid ocean diving in cold water. Most boats with bolt on keels will have flat bilges with no sump to trap water that gets below and water will get below on a passage. Without a sump that water will slop up the hull sides and soak anything that's touching the hull.

The new boats will have more open room but probably way less storage capability. Places to put things becomes a very valuable feature the longer you live on the boat. Also increased weight will affect the performance of a light boat more than a heavier one.

Newer boats will be faster in lighter air and point higher than a full keel boat which are nice things to have for coastal cruising. Being lighter and fatter, they will surf faster DDW. Unfortunately they may pound unmercifully going to weather and may be no faster when wind and waves kick up. In reaching conditions in typical trade wind conditions the full keel boat may well be significantly faster and do it with way way more comfort. Our fat and supposedly slow Westsail 32 left some hot shot race boats in our wake in real world ocean conditions. We also seemed to make just as fast passages as newer design boats.

Long keel boats with attached rudders and encapsulated ballast are way more resistant to grounding damage. Know of two Westsails that have ended up high and dry on the beach and were returned to the water with almost no damage. One of those was Satori from "Perfect Storm" fame. Not that you'll hit something or run aground but the attached rudder, Long keel with shallow angle lead and internal ballast will survive something that would ruin your day in a short fin keel with a bulb and a spade rudder design.

One thing heavy displacement, full keel boats are not are fun and exciting to sail. They are about getting somewhere reasonably quickly in comfort. The weight and directional stability don't make them quick to accelerate and fast to respond to the helm. If excitement is your goal in sailing a lightweight surfer should be in your sites.

What you do get in an older boat is a way cheaper boat. There are a bunch of under $50,000 veteran boats out there that would be more than capable of a long cruise. Newer boats will set you back two or three times that money and a multi hull 4-10 times that much

yep

it all depends on what you want.

[Ibetitsthisway]

Originally Posted by Joli

All boats are an amalgamation of parts that wear out. You can maintain the parts to extend their life but eventually you will need to replace them. If you buy new, the parts are new and you should enjoy many years of lower maintenance costs. The question to ask is, is it better to spend the money on replacing parts on an older boat or is it better to absorb the depreciation of a new boat? Only the owner can answer this.

The answer is easy, if you look at it the economical way. if the standard boat looses 50% value in the first 5 years, you can buy MANY spare parts with this.
For a second hand boat you need to buy spare parts. sometimes labour, if you cant fix it alone. for a new boat you pay developing cost, marketing expense, profit margin...

BUT a new boat gives you the freedom of choice - to buy exactly what you want while you might not find this on the second hand market and might have to live with compromises.
buying a new boat and making compromises due to budget restraints does - imho - not make sense.

[Ibetitsthisway]

Originally Posted by double u

“Back when fiberglass was an emerging boat building material, no one really knew how long it would last, so they over built the hull thickness, which on the surface sounds great!.....BUT.....what happened in reality was that the laminates were often resin starvedz“
FINALLY somebody is writing this! I can't stand this ...“in the good old days, when hulllaminates were 15“ thick...“ BS any more. They might have been that thick, but there was chopper gun layup, non climatized shed, ...haphazard mixing of resin/hardener,...what not. Thickness is only ONE parameter of fibreglass laminates!

I bought a 45 year old swedish gfk boat 5 month ago. the parts on this bucket, which were in best shape are the hull and the deck. it feels and looks like new.
2 kids jumping on the cabin roof showed me the difference to a boat on a trade show we saw before. that one bent that I ordered the kids to stop.

BUT maybe there is a bias in all the debate here at the moment.

Because:

- the old boats, (I call old if older than 40 years) which were badly build have long been scraped.

- the old boats which are stribgly build and fun to use - are still in use.

- there are fantastic new boats which are absolutely PERFECTLY build consrtcution and all day use wise and are to dream of - at very high prices.

- there are cheaply build boats for harbor use or to adress a target group which has not a lot of knowledge about boating.

so - if you know boat can do what for you - everything is fine.

[250224]

Originally Posted by surf_km55

Blah, blah, blah.

You might not like it but it is true imo. At least for 'normal' standard production boats.

And it is the right thing to do also. If consumers do mostly coastal sailing and sit in the marina (when there is strong wind) then a boat optimized for this scenario is much better than an old dark seagoing one.

> One of the major problems with newer boats is that they are designed and built for sitting in marinas, not crossing oceans. They have wide open cabins and not enough handholds. They don't have any sea berths.

[Ibetitsthisway]

sitting on a shiny yacht build for "marina use only" and celebrating glamour parties is albsolutely wounderful.


and if people persue this way of life it is also absolutely great!


But we are in a cruiser forum and I recon people asking for advice here are looking for boats that can take the beatings from their captains mistakes.

also it might be good if the ingeneers of cruising boats will have thought about things the buyer might not have thought about but will encounter one day.


Thus... shiny harbor boats are not a recommendation in this forum, I think.
At least I would be dissapointed if I were advidsed that way.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by Ibetitsthisway

sitting on a shiny yacht build for "marina use only" and celebrating glamour parties is albsolutely wounderful.


and if people persue this way of life it is also absolutely great!


But we are in a cruiser forum and I recon people asking for advice here are looking for boats that can take the beatings from their captains mistakes.

also it might be good if the ingeneers of cruising boats will have thought about things the buyer might not have thought about but will encounter one day.


Thus... shiny harbor boats are not a recommendation in this forum, I think.
At least I would be dissapointed if I were advidsed that way.

How do you explain Lagoons safely sailing around the world? I'm assuming you are refering to boats like the lagoon when you say marina boat?

Also keep in mind theres lots of them that are crossing oceans, they cant all be just lucky.

[Ibetitsthisway]

Originally Posted by daletournier

How do you explain Lagoons safely sailing around the world? I'm assuming you are refering to boats like the lagoon when you say marina boat?

Also keep in mind theres lots of them that are crossing oceans, they cant all be just lucky.

I would explain it the same way like I explain people not fasten seatbelts and driving their whole lifes without injury or people smoking 40 cigs a day and not getting cancer


Relying on luck is not a good strategy on oceans ... in my humble opinion.