Old vs. NEW Sailboats for Cruising

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Calif.Ted

Yeah, he's not alone there.

Really?

Well maybe if I have time tomorrow I can do a short essay on why the guy with $200,000 to spend on a boat might end up with a better, safer, more well built boat in really good shape than the guy with $4,000 to spend.

I thought it would be self explanatory but ….

[bobnlesley]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

...newer boats...designed and built for sitting in marinas, not crossing oceans...

As a generalisation there's some truth in that; many of the things which in my opinion make a yacht a 'good offshore' boat are the exact opposite of what's required to make a yacht a 'good marina' boat. We chose the older/heavier/full keel approach and don't regret it, but having sailed from Europe to the Pacific, I doubt that there are many boat variants/types that we haven't come across along the way. Looking around the anchorage right now (Musket Cove, Fiji) I can see boats varying between 26' and perhaps 90', motor boats and sail boats, catamarans and monohulls, with hulls made of grp, timber, plywood, ferro-cement, steel, aluminium and carbon fibre. There're more than a few which I wouldn't be comfortable with, but they're all ocean-capable , they couldn't have got here otherwise!
Within reason the most important factor is the crew as that'll usually break long before a well maintained boat - of whatever type - does, the boat's just the tool that the cruising sailor's chosen to use.

[Cheechako]

It's a broad subject. There are plenty of stories of newish boats having issues though. Many bent spade rudders. On some boats the keel fell right off. But there are plenty of stories about older boats coming apart. Some at the toerail etc.
As a sailor at sea, my goal in preparation always leans toward safety, simplicity and redundancy.
If a chainplate should be 5/16 thick I want 3/8".
If a spade rudder can easily bend in heavy seas I want a supported rudder.
If some cored hulls get water in them, I want a solid hull.
Bolt on keels can come loose, eventually need maintenance, keels as part of the hull dont.
etc etc etc etc. Owning boats is a never ending list of maintenance, my theory is: eliminate as many potential failure or maintenance items as possible to start with.
The sea is a harsh mistress.
I have no doubt in my mind that modern light boats are not as sturdy at sea. But that doesn't mean I wouldn't go to sea in one. Heck I might go to sea to race in one that is driven to it's limit.
You can tow a ton of gravel in a trailer over unpaved roads for hundreds of miles.
But should you? or should you have a heavy pickup truck instead?

[barnakiel]

That old boats are better is a misconception.


Old boats are like any other old things. Age in itself is a factor in materials getting weaker.


And many old designs sailed like pigs too (overhangs, inefficient keels and rudders, wet decks, etc.)



Another point is that old boats were built without use of modern technology (e.g. engineering software, modelling software, autoclaves, etc) so old boats were often overbuild in the wrong way - plenty of material where the extra strength could be better used or distributed elsewhere. 2 inch thick hull is nothing when done in polyester resin and toilet tissue.



You can also turn the table and say that old boats were built by minute improvements on even older boats. BUT based only on ones that survived and were known to sail well. Thus many old boats were result of ages of DEVELOPMENT. Now take some new boats, they seem to be built by ERASMUS students who have just done an evening course in CAD ....


Many old designs are still the best one can get to sail safe, far and in style too.



(For US readers - ERASMUS is a European student exchange programme known for partying, language barriers and keeping young people at universities as long as possible - to avoid paying them unemployment benefits).


Ole!


In summary, old boats are not better than new boats. You can always go to a good modern boatyard and ask them to build a proven older design in your material of choice. It will cost you big money but you will end up with the best of both worlds.


99.99% new boats spend time in marinas. They are absolutely fit for the job and given their low prices, airy interiors and stability, you should not ask for more.



b.

[barnakiel]

And you do not want a 'fixer upper' if your aim is serious sailing.


b.

[barnakiel]

And a 26' boat sailing Canaries to the West Indies is only a proof anything that floats gets from Canaries to the West Indies.


Driftwood. Pet bottles. Sargasso too.


BTW nice video and great adventure, no doubt!


barnakiel

[barnakiel]

Example of a new boat:


http://www.noordkaper.com/noordkaper...e%20ENG%20.pdf


I see no wrong with new boats.


Especially when they are tied to my dock ...


Cheers,

b.

[Pegu Club]

Our first boat was a 1975 Bristol 24, cost $4200.00 the previous owner kept the boat in very nice condition, Hull, deck, rigging etc, all in quality condition, sailed her for two and a half year and then purchased our current boat, currently in Annapolis to work the shows, and then on our way to George Town Exumas late In the year, maybe by Christmas if the weather gods smile on us.

Fair winds

[thomm225]

Yep, mine is old as well and I paid $3500 for it. I've put about $10,000 into it over 10 years but had I had a larger budget I may have gone ahead and replaced the rigging by now. I plan to though in about 4 years during my next haul out

[Greg K]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Example of a new boat:


http://www.noordkaper.com/noordkaper...e%20ENG%20.pdf


I see no wrong with new boats.


Especially when they are tied to my dock ...


Cheers,

b.

Lovely boat, Barnakiel. Too bad they don't show the underwater profile in the info brochure. For me, that has always been the most interesting part.

But I do think you are comparing apples to oranges in your post. The original poster's question pertains to new "production" ( presumably) modern designed, plastic boats, not new semi-custom, classic (or faux-classic) designs in aluminum or steel.

Aside from the advancement in materials and engineering, I think we can both agree that the main difference between newer production boats and the old "classic" plastic (which evolved from their older wooden predecessors) is the radical shift in design parameters. If I understand your point correctly, we can also agree that that radical shift in design parameters has not resulted in boats that are either more seaworthy or seakindly. Arguably, quite the opposite, in fact.

Though I have not seen the underwater profile, the boat you link to, with it's plumb bow and beefy pilothouse, itself looks like a throwback to ages past of north sea fishing vessels and pilot cutters from the last century. Sure looks like the very old is coming back into fashion again, even in production boats, at least in terms of the above water profiles. Looks like the age of the faux-classic is upon us.

[NevilleCat]

Sure would be fun to stand on the bow of that little ship as it thunders along on a close reach, shouldering aside 14 tonnes of sea though!

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by DSIMMIE

On many posts I have read, there's a general agreement on that older boats are better built, and newer production boats are not safe.....

No there isn't. There's a general agreement that there are different boats, well maybe agreement.

For the most part the "old" boat people point to the "new" boats having keel/rudder problems. Which is kind of, sometimes, once in a while, correct for specific models. But they forget about old boat problems like coring issues, bad tanks, leaking deck connections etc.

BTW - in these discussions old always seems to be 1985 and older. I always wonder at what age a boat becomes "old" versus "modern"

[Tillsbury]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

No there isn't. There's a general agreement that there are different boats, well maybe agreement.

For the most part the "old" boat people point to the "new" boats having keel/rudder problems. Which is kind of, sometimes, once in a while, correct for specific models. But they forget about old boat problems like coring issues, bad tanks, leaking deck connections etc.

BTW - in these discussions old always seems to be 1985 and older. I always wonder at what age a boat becomes "old" versus "modern"

If you’ve seen “Sail Life” you’ll know that his mid-80s boat is comfortably in the “old” category, having required almost complete rebuild of the hull inside and out, rudder, and deck. And that’s only how far he’s got. It’s terrifying to see how badly built and maintained that boat is... I’d move your line further on if I were you... most of the way through last century...

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by Tillsbury

... I’d move your line further on if I were you... most of the way through last century...

I can only say that the construction of my 2001 Hunter is WAY better than my 1988 Cal 39 was. But the Cal was considered a "better" boat. My 2001 Hunter has needed no hull/deck/rudder repair.

[a64pilot]

The Myth that boats were built better back in the day is driven by the old boats that have survived were the well built ones, there were many poorly built ones too, most of them went to the junk yard long ago, so we only see the good old boats, not the junky old boats.

Similar to houses, often the old poorly built houses have fallen down, but the very well built ones haven’t, but there have always been “shotgun” houses, always will be.
However the modern trend is to cut quality of manufacturing in order to increase the size for the same price, same with boats I believe, except for a few manufacturers that won’t do that, but they are few and only manufacture a fraction of new boats manufactured.
Maybe it’s always been that way?

Now newer boats the junkers haven’t been junked yet, so you do see poorly built ones.

There are many well built strong new boats, just those aren’t seen every where and they often cost an arm and a leg, making the good old boats the only “good” boats that many can afford.