Najad 360 - Bluewater cruiser?

[thursday]

I'm poking around Najad's and trying to understand how to evaluate boats. My understanding is that Najad's are known for being very high quality boats, ocean worthy. Looking at the numbers for a Najad 360, it's Comfort Ratio is 29.94, and it's Displacement to Length ratio is 246, so in the "moderate" area according to sailboatdata.com. At the same time, it's sail area to displacement ratio puts it in "under powered" category, but just barely.

So my question is: how should one think about this? My interpretation is that it's a solid built boat that is capable but given its size and weight, it just might not be the most comfortable experience in the ocean.

[goboatingnow]

Don’t place much reliance on numbers. Go sailing in one.

[psk125]

It might be comfortable enough, but the SA/disp ratio explains why they carry so much fuel. It looks like they expect that the engine is going to be used a lot on this boat because it doesn't have big enough sails. Goboatingnow is right. Go out and try different boats to see what works for you and the kind of sailing you want to do. All the numbers may be "right" but the layout below might be "wrong". If you expect to make long passages you need sea berths, not centerline doubles. If you stay in a slip every night you may not want single sea berths. A U-shaped galley is best under way. A linear galley has proponents in marinas. People have different needs and so there are different boats. You have to go see for yourself.

[thursday]

Thank you for your responses. I'm not advocating purchasing a boat based on numbers, I'm just trying to understand what the numbers mean at a high level, like pks125 was able to get a rough mental idea of how the boat would sail.

[crankysailor]

Usefulness of those numbers aside, Najad does enjoy a reputation as one of the skandinavian builders of bluewater boats of classic quality, perhaps somewhat piggybacked on Hallberg-Rassy. I have looked at some used Najads when buying and even looked at their current 395CC pondering if buying new was an option (yeah right) and I wasn't convinced to be honest. Particularly now, they seem to want to target more the deep pocketed weekend sailor who wants to brag about having a bluewater boat of legendary pedigree than building an actual sailing boat. "Features" like the main sheet that attaches to the cockpit table, without even getting into the polemic of missing skeg and the use of a saildrive, hint one that they are just following the money these days... I guess who can blame them.

But alas, you asked about a 360.. I remember visiting an older Najad.. not sure if it was a 360 though. I recall thinking it looked beautiful but it had weird design features like edges in odd places that you were guaranteed to hit with your forehead with at the worst possible moment, things like that. Beautiful woodwork though.

[goboatingnow]

Very Expensive boat foot for foot. If that’s your thing great

[boatman61]

I would say they make a great long distance cruiser, decent tankage and what you have to remember these boats are designed to deal with Northern latitudes where conditions are tough more often than not.. not pouncing around Greek Islands within spitting distance of each other.
As for being underpowered (just).. that's what light air sails are for, a furling asym will cure the <10kt wind issues.
A real boat, not a Bendi..

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by boatman61

I would say they make a great long distance cruiser, decent tankage and what you have to remember these boats are designed to deal with Northern latitudes where conditions are tough more often than not.. not pouncing around Greek Islands within spitting distance of each other.

As for being underpowered (just).. that's what light air sails are for, a furling asym will cure the &lt;10kt wind issues.

A real boat, not a Bendi..

Don’t be deliberately nasty

I delivered a new Naiad and a new Malo once , lovely boats but way to pricey. For the same money I could have got a 50 fitted AWB. Far better cross oceans in a 50 , “ there no substitute for cubic inches” both boats were under canvassed and clearly designed to spend a lot of time motoring.

Not particularly sea friendly interiors ( both were aft cabin based ) , but goodness they were lovely to look at if you liked swathes of lovely handcrafted furniture.

Bavaria’s , Beneteau , Jeanneau , Delphia, Hanse, are built in northern Europe and of course found all over Northern European waters also found crossing the oceans.

These Scandinavian boats are very fine pieces of boat construction. Very elaborate hand crafted interiors. High end pricing and full customisation abilities in some places

Of course many Scandi high end builders didn’t survive just like similar British ones As costs rose above the customers expectations.
Meanwhile the AWB boys go from strength to strength buoyed by 3 years back orders these days.
It’s amazing any of the Sandi boats are still in production at all given the cost basis and Market. HR must be feeling the pinch right now.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Don’t be deliberately nasty

I delivered a new Naiad and a new Malo once , lovely boats but way to pricey. For the same money I could have got a 50 fitted AWB. Far better cross oceans in a 50 , “ there no substitute for cubic inches” both boats were under canvassed and clearly designed to spend a lot of time motoring.

Not particularly sea friendly interiors ( both were aft cabin based ) , but goodness they were lovely to look at if you liked swathes of lovely handcrafted furniture.

Bavaria’s , Beneteau , Jeanneau , Delphia, Hanse, are built in northern Europe and of course found all over Northern European waters also found crossing the oceans.

These Scandinavian boats are very fine pieces of boat construction. Very elaborate hand crafted interiors. High end pricing and full customisation abilities in some places

Of course many Scandi high end builders didn’t survive just like similar British ones As costs rose above the customers expectations.
Meanwhile the AWB boys go from strength to strength buoyed by 3 years back orders these days.
It’s amazing any of the Sandi boats are still in production at all given the cost basis and Market. HR must be feeling the pinch right now.

I'm not being deliberately nasty, I'm just stating facts.. most of the AWB boats are just used for local sailing within comfort zones else I'd not be asked to deliver 40ft boats from E Spain to W Greece.. basically island hopping with the longest passage being 2 and a bit days.. yet these are often the people advocating what makes an ocean voyager.
I would say the amount of folk making passages of 1000nm or more make up less than 1% of the sailing world, the rest, if they manage 500nm in a season consider it a good year.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by boatman61

I'm not being deliberately nasty, I'm just stating facts.. most of the AWB boats are just used for local sailing within comfort zones else I'd not be asked to deliver 40ft boats from E Spain to W Greece.. basically island hopping with the longest passage being 2 and a bit days.. yet these are often the people advocating what makes an ocean voyager.
I would say the amount of folk making passages of 1000nm or more make up less than 1% of the sailing world, the rest, if they manage 500nm in a season consider it a good year.

There’s a delivery skipper friend of mine here makes good smoking money doing Greek island deliveries. Mostly always under engine.

Equally I’ve delivered heavy Scandi boats over short distances ( Poole DunLaoghaire )

So deliveries are not a function of the boat more a function of the owners.

AWb boats are by far the biggest percentage of the tiny percentage of such trips that includes ocean crossings or other deep sea passages.

Of course AWBs will be seen coastal hoping , that’s all to do with the ownership profile , you’re not circumnavigating on 4 weeks annual vacation

But it has nothing to do with the boat type , as the three AWBs that left here in Greece to sail to the Caribbean demonstrates , one on delivery , two owner skipper

[boatman61]

I'm not talking deliveries I'm talking good small boats for voyaging..
I don't deny Bene's etc can do the voyages, I've solo'd a 321 nonstop 47day trans-at to UK and a 331 via Horta to Portugal from the Caribe but they both had small tankage and poor storage capacity for the average sailor fond of showers and big meals not out of a can.
The Najad 36 is a superior boat in all aspects and for voyaging, given the choice I would pick that over a 5 year old Bene/Bav/Jen..
As they say, you get what you pay for.. some shop at Primark, I prefer Massimo Dutti..

[crankysailor]

Originally Posted by boatman61

I'm not talking deliveries I'm talking good small boats for voyaging..
I don't deny Bene's etc can do the voyages, I've solo'd a 321 nonstop 47day trans-at to UK and a 331 via Horta to Portugal from the Caribe but they both had small tankage and poor storage capacity for the average sailor fond of showers and big meals not out of a can.
The Najad 36 is a superior boat in all aspects and for voyaging, given the choice I would pick that over a 5 year old Bene/Bav/Jen..
As they say, you get what you pay for.. some shop at Primark, I prefer Massimo Dutti..

Sheez! another Primark bashing thread. There are plenty of folk wearing Primark everyday out there not ending up naked! I even met a girl once who bought her wedding dress at H&M and she was perfectly fine afterwards!

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by crankysailor

Sheez! another Primark bashing thread. There are plenty of folk wearing Primark everyday out there not ending up naked! I even met a girl once who bought her wedding dress at H&M and she was perfectly fine afterwards!

A common error is to mistake cost =quality or cheaper equals less quality.

A beautiful hand finished piece of furniture is a joy to behold. But my 20 year guaranteed IKEA kitchen is way way more suited for the job of being robust kitchen furniture then a beautiful hand crafted queen Ann writing deck. !!

It’s all about compromise. Nothing is perfect.

Buy that Queen Anne boat , enjoy it. , but my pasta bake will be first class from my ikea steam oven.

[boatman61]

And my Tagine would be yummy using that Queen Anne desk..

[TrentePieds]

Thursday said: "I'm just trying to understand what the numbers mean at a high level, like pks125 was able to get a rough mental idea of how the boat would sail."

Yes indeed. That should be your first task, but as GBN said: Don't place too much reliance on numbers. The SA/D is just fine for comparing one boat with another, but only if other comparative data are taken into account at the same time.

You need to get inside your "problem" by defining what is so archly called the "use case", i.e., WHERE you intend to sail the boat, and HOW you intend to sail the boat.

Summer sailing out of, say, Ijmuiden with the North Sea or the English Channel for a playground is obviously a different matter from sailing, say, within the Ijselmeer. And from winter sailing in those same waters. Sailing with a family of four demands a different boat from single-handing. Crossing oceans is best done in a Boeing 747. And so on.

My little boat (designed and built by a Dutchman, though I myself used to be Danish) is the cat's pajamas for how I use it and where I sail: The Salish Sea on the west coast of Canada. Weather forecasting here is dead simple: If you can see the mountains, it's gonna rain. If you can't - it's raining! Thus a "pilot house" sloop. In the winter when the stormy winds do blow, my SA/D of a tad under 14 is perfectly fine. I even have to reef now and then! In the summer when there isn't a catspaw in the Straits of Georgia (Yes, THAT King George!) I wish for a SA/D of 26! The 20HP "iron wind" makes up for that.

Remember that SA/D is only a fixed number as long as the vessel is still on the designer's drawing board or, heaven help us, computer. As the wind pipes up you reef, and the ACTUAL SA/D goes down! What you want, for sailing aan de wind wherever you are doing it, is enough canvas to heel 'er to her "sweet spot" in the given wind. Whatever the actual SA/D may be for the given ship in the given conditions is of no particular relevance or interest.

Similarly, A low D/L is good in some circumstances. But not always good. And there is a price to pay in terms of handling for a low D/L. So again: Where are you gonna sail, and how are you gonna sail? Tell us something about that, and from C/F's hard core you will get many comments that are worth paying attention to. A lot of them at odds with each other of course :-)!

Goede reis !

TrentePieds