Island Packet: the right boat for remote voyaging?

[nightowle]

Originally Posted by Lawnmower

Did anybody actually read my post?

"I'm not particularly interested in sailing for the pure joy of being pushed around by wind, rather I see sailing as a means to go places that would otherwise be very difficult/more costly."

Just buy one out there. Look for one in Langkawi, Malaysia known as the "End of the Road" marina for boat sales. This is where some nice sailboats can be had at reasonable prices sold by sailors that don't have an interest in bringing them back to N.America.

[Eder]

Quick note:
There has never been a report ever of an Island Packet rudder failure...I still carry emergency steering equipment for rudder failure anyway but a bit pointless.

[Messing About]

Originally Posted by thomm225

A couple at my dock bought a beautiful IP a couple years ago with similar plans.



That boat is for sale now.

Which one are you referring to?

There’s a gorgeous IP SP Cruiser that a couple bought from the original owner,upgrade the heck out of it, started a nice you tube channel and travelled from CA to FL, then immediately put it up for sale. I’d love to know why. I’d also love to acquire that precise vessel but, despite having the money, the desire, and the plans …. life still isn’t ready for me to move on yet. So difficult to accept.

[GrowleyMonster]

Originally Posted by Celestialsailor

I see you have never owned a boat before.

HAHAHAHA I was gonna say that! A sailboat, to save money. It is a beautiful concept, isn't it? My boat didn't get the memo, I guess.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Messing About

Which one are you referring to?

There’s a gorgeous IP SP Cruiser that a couple bought from the original owner,upgrade the heck out of it, started a nice you tube channel and travelled from CA to FL, then immediately put it up for sale. I’d love to know why. I’d also love to acquire that precise vessel but, despite having the money, the desire, and the plans …. life still isn’t ready for me to move on yet. So difficult to accept.

This is a different one I believe.

This one was an IP32 I think with two jib (Cutter rig) on furlers.

A relatively new boat though.

The couple was freaking out a bit by waves in the James River so maybe when they got into some real waves in the Bay or the Atlantic Ocean they had second thoughts.

Not sure though, but there was a For Sale sign on the boat last week.

Similar to this one.

https://images.yachtworld.com/resize...=1475155894000

[ohdrinkboy]

I wish I could get over the IP gelcoat color......yuck.

[GrowleyMonster]

Originally Posted by Lawnmower

Hey everyone,

I'm new to sailing and looking for a boat that I can grow into and take me and a couple of (intermittent) guests around the world, I'm particularly interested in spending a long time cruising the Pacific and exploring remote reefs and atolls, living at anchor and going for months without significant re-supply.

I'm not particularly interested in sailing for the pure joy of being pushed around by wind, rather I see sailing as a means to go places that would otherwise be very difficult/more costly.

I think the storage, tankage, shallow draft, overall construction, cockpit size, headroom (I'm 6'3") of the island packets could be ideal for my needs. I also think the interiors just look fantastic! My budget is $125k at the top end and I love the look of the 380 (maybe out of budget) and the 350 (perhaps too small?). Older models are also of interest too however I'm keen to avoid having to replace tanks and chainplates as I hear these are common issues with pre-1997 models and tricky/expensive to fix.

I'd love to hear from Island packet owners, particularly what your thoughts are on the suitability of these boats for my purposes (inc. any particular models) and also just general comments about your experiences living aboard and long distance cruising on an island packet.

The other option I'm considering is a Jeanneau Sun Odyssey (around 40ft) from 2000-2007, basically for the sole reason that they're just so much boat for the money and seem to be built fairly solidly compared to other similar boats.

(Also for the well intentioned folk who want to say - get some more experience etc before deciding to sail RTW and buy a boat etc - thanks in advance for your comments).

An IP can be a "relatively" cheap boat to acquire, particularly a vintage one that has knocked around in the Caribbean charter industry long enough to get a few battle scars and start showing its age. You need to have room in your budget for a complete re-rigging of such a boat, though. There are a lot of elderly ex charter warriors out there. Some sailing around the world. Some abandoned halfway around the world. Some that are derelict hobo housing afloat, some that are dock queens and have hulls encrusted with oysters nearly big enough to eat, and many for sale at very reasonable to extremely unreasonable prices. When you get up into the over 40' category, you are biting off a really big chunk of maintenance expense. Fitting out for an extended South Pacific cruise will actually cost more than the boat, most likely. The hulls are fairly sturdy for mass produced boats, and there is a big owner community to go to for peer support. Not a bad choice.

Your intended voyage may prove in the end to have been not such a good idea. When you deliberately sail away from civilization, it has its good points but it has more bad ones, when bad stuff happens like you spin out a bearing or throw a rod or the bottom corrodes out of a fuel tank or your 5 year supply of filters only lasts 7 months or you get dismasted or lose a rudder or take a bad lightning hit, whatever. Yeah there would be times of idyll and beauty and serenity. Throw in a bit of solitude and you have a very enjoyable combination. But bad stuff happens. Boats are magnets for bad stuff, especially with newly minted skipper/owners.

A few years of relevant experience is more important than just having a realisticly large budget.

My suggestion would be to start out with baby steps. You will save a lot of money that you can later use to (attempt to) fill up that fiberglass lined money disposal pit in the water, also known as your forever boat. First, learn the basic physics and mechanics of sailing. This can be done nicely with a dinghy. You can buy a popular model on the used market and if you don't damage it, probably sell it when you are ready to upgrade, for not much less than you paid for it. Maintenance costs for a dink are almost zero, unless you add a tiny outboard, which I don't recommend for that class of boat. Dinghy racing is very popular and there are organized programs at virtually every proper yacht club or sailing club. Be prepared to get wet. You will capsize a time or two while learning, both in the beginning and also when learning how far you can push the boat. You don't need to pay for a slip or for storage on the hard. Park it in your driveway or back yard. Some carry nicely in the bed of a full size pickup and I have seen a few cartopped.

A nice upgrade would be a trailerable daysailer. Again, no, or few, marina related expenses, and easy maintenance right there in your driveway. You can take such a boat out into somewhat less protected waters in somewhat more challenging conditions than a dinghy. You start getting more of a yachty feel. Buy used, already depreciated to the flat part of the curve, and if you take care of her and also the trailer, you can sell without much loss when you are ready to upgrade again. Meanwhile you can spend days out on lake or bay or sound, even do boat camping on tiny little islets or sandbars, if you are adventurous enough.

Next upgrade: a small cruiser that you can use for extended coastal cruising or even liveaboard. Now you need a slip, insurance, all that stuff, and the spending begins. You can buy something under 30' that will serve, with a small diesel or even an increasingly less common Atomic 4, for propulsion. You will have a berth for sleeping, probably a stove and sink and table for cooking and eating, a head, maybe even a proper shower stall, water tanks, electronic communications and navigation equipment, and more of a big boat feel and handling, but still generally easy to set up for solo sailing. You can add solar panels, swim ladder, dinghy, etc for more flexibility. Here is where you start really learning to fix stuff and maintain stuff. Your $2k 40 to 50 year old pocket cruiser will teach you a lot. "Sleeps six!" shouts the sales brochure. Dependable! Goes ANYWHERE! Lol. You also develop a more realistic set of expectations and a bit of seaman-like cynicism. You learn that ANYTHING can break or wear out, and you will probably not have what you need to fix it and get home, but you will have to do it anyway with whatever you got. You will learn the various rules and regulations and laws that pertain to your thing. You will be lucky to get back a tenth of the total cost of ownership when you upgrade again. OTOH you might never sell, and if you live aboard and ditch the house, you can come out money ahead, even though a house appreciates while a boat depreciates. You will spend money on LOTS of repairs, renews, upgrades, and the buyer of your boat won't care. Of COURSE you had the engine rebuilt! Of COURSE you bought a brand new boom, and of COURSE you just did a haulout and bottom job and prop refresh and new alternator and starter and central air and 1000 amp-hour battery bank and new electronics and isolation transformer. I'm not paying for stuff that you needed to do just so the boat is in good enough shape to sell! LOL you never get your money back on upgrades or repairs. It is just money that evaporates. New sails? B.O.A.T. stands for "Break out another thousand", except those sails will cost multiple "boat bucks". But you still get your money's worth out of using the boat. No reason why you can't make multi-day independent voyages, even cross the odd ocean or two, once everything is upgraded and in good condition, and you know what you are doing. Now, you are a few years in to this sailing stuff, and have not only read all the books, but have been there and done that and already wore out the tshirt.

The small cruiser stage is where you really become a sailor. You have a boat that lives in the water, and didn't come with a trailer. You can fix stuff. You are ready for anything. You have grown out of the "can do" world and have graduated into the "must do, so will do" class. A real sailor does the impossible with the inadequate under prohibitively unfriendly conditions, as a matter of course. This is rewarding in its own right, but also it prepares you for your dream voyage. EVERY BOAT, no matter how much it costs, how new it is, how fancy or how well regarded, needs fixing every single day. You need to understand that. If you don't see what broke or wore out or is about to fail, you haven't looked hard enough. Same with a small cruiser. Same with a big bruiser of a circumnavigation ready yacht that an ignorant landsman will instantly recognize as a yacht. This is an important stage of your growth as a sailor. Additionally, you will have opportunity to sail out of sight of land and learn how to NAVIGATE. Navigation is not pressing a touch screen and following electronic arrows. Navigation is planning your route and waypoints, determining your position through observation on an open and featureless ocean by observing sun, moon, planets, and stars, selecting a course to steer that will keep you headed in the right direction and out of danger areas, and converting that course to a magnetic heading for your compass. The most elemental rule of Navigation is never rely on only one means of position determination. That doesn't mean have two electronic chart plotters, either. If you can't do the work, don't expect a machine to do it for you and do it correctly. Another major element in the practice of Navigation is keeping a proper DR. If all else fails, a good DR alone is often enough to allow you to make a surprisingly accurate landfall. You could lose all your electronics or electrical power. A war could break out and only authorized users get a useful GPS or other satellite generated position. A glitch in the system could shut it down. For all practical purposes, this hasn't happened and is unlikely to happen, but it is not impossible at all. Celestial observations depend on seeing the body and also seeing the horizon. You can easily go days without getting a proper fix, in some waters at some times of the year. Your DR can help keep you out of trouble and even keep you from looking like an idiot. The basics of proper Navigation are not difficult to learn, and it is shortsighted to not learn and practice the art and science of Navigation, but instead rely on a little electronic box to tell you where to go. Your GPS is orders of magnitude more accurate, and yeah, in the middle of an ocean, I suppose there is some satisfaction in knowing your position to the nearest foot instead of within a mile or three, but no real benefit. Yes, the chart plotter is easy to use, sort of like how flip flops are easier to put on than laced shoes, and give you more time for other stuff, and it SHOULD BE USED. But a real Navigator also does his "day's work" every day. Morning stars. Amplitude, for compass check. Morning sun line. LAN. Afternoon sun line, to cross with the other two for the noon fix. Evening stars. The odd moon or planet line thrown in and advanced or retarded to a fix with an LOP from another body. Latitude by Polaris. The true Navigator does all that when conditions allow, to stay in practice, and to back up the electronic fixes and track, and compare to the DR track for calculating set and drift. At a minimum, the casual navigator does his compass check and noon fix by Sun, when conditions permit, and of course keeps his DR track. At the BAREST minimum, Latitude by LAN, which is all the Navigator in the early days was capable of, in way of Celestial observations. During the Age of Discovery, the Navigator generally sailed N or S to a selected Latitude, sailed E or W as required to the next landfall, generally N or S of the destination but just far enough to know for certain whether to sail N or S, and like magic, the ship arrived at its intended port. Usually.

Pilotage is distinct from Navigation in that Pilotage refers to bouys or markers or landmarks for determining position relative to hazards, channels, and other features of interest. You will begin learning Pilotage even while daysailing. You won't have much realistic practice at Navigation until you have a visible ocean horizon unobstructed by land. Both are essential skills. A lot of wrecks have occurred because the skipper had his nose pressed to an LCD display instead of eyes up and scanning the area from close aboard to shore or horizon.

Let me stop a minute and express my utter contempt at anybody who takes charge of a vessel without a comprehensive knowledge of the Rules. That is the first thing you need to learn, before damage control, boat handling, first aid, regulations, Navigation or Piloting. Rules, AKA COLREGS and in the US also Inland Rules, are how we prevent collisions. They are a system whereby we can determine what another vessel is doing and what we can expect it to do, how to ensure that other vessels know what we are doing, how to select a maneuvering action when approaching another vessel, and what to do when you don't know what to do. They tell you what actions to take to avoid collision. If you don't really know Rules, you are a floating MENACE TO LIFE AND PROPERTY while in control of a vessel. Serious. There is no wiggle room here, and being a beginner is no excuse, neither morally nor legally, to not know and follow the Rules of the Road. You are required to know the rules when operating your 20' trailer sailer just like the watch officer on a 1200 foot tanker, and just as responsible for following them, and just as much at fault when you cause damage or injury by your neglect to follow them or inability to follow them properly. This is serious stuff. Don't blow it off.

Some formal or semiformal training will help you get off on the right foot. Start out with the USCG Power Squadron beginner's course. This, before you even buy a dink. ASA has some excellent, if slightly overpriced, courses. On the strength of the basic courses leading up to bareboat skipper, you can bareboat charter a yacht from most charter companies, i.e. "rent" it, without having to also pay for a skipper and crew. That should tell you something about the usefulness of the course work. You can get a lot of valuable hands on training by crewing for others, both on cruises and in races.

FINALLY, after several years, you are truly ready to buy your first "big" boat, i.e. a cruising boat over about 34' that is generally recognized as practical for making long ocean voyages. 34' to 40' is pretty much its own class, the mid sized cruiser, and is the most popular for singles and couples in the cruising life. Maintenance costs are much higher than for the small cruiser class, say 25' to 33', and may shock you, but are much less than the over 40' boats which can BREAK you when you start talking about buying sails, new engine or major work on engine, even haulout and bottom job, and new rigging. An under 40' boat is generally comfortable for a single or couple. A boat in the bottom of this midsize range is easy for a single person to manage, or can be made easy for a single person to manage, even in adverse conditions. Toward the big end, sails get big and heavy, catch a lot of wind, and get hard for one person to handle. You may have difficulty seeing ahead, particularly close in, while steering. But, there is room for goodies like a diesel generator, watermaker, central air, more fuel tanks, and so on.

Increasingly popular even for singles and couples, (guilty as charged, here) are boats over 40'. Especially with a heavily built boat, you start to get more of a ship-like feel and comfort level. Singlehanding a big boat, though, is not for the fainthearted or those incapable of planning and optimization of systems, nor for those who think that it is within their budget but really isn't. A bigger boat is both a joy and a massive PITA. Everybody who has never owned one, wants one. Half of those who own one, wish they could sell it. With bigger boats, insurance begins to get more difficult to get, and without insurance, you won't be able to rent a slip, maybe not even a mooring ball. In regards to bigger boats, insurance companies don't like older boats and flee in terror from new sailors with no big boat experience or certificates or a license with time on it. Sometimes, the only way to get insured is to hire a professional skipper every time you leave your slip. You will NEED a dinghy, and honestly a hard dink and not an inflatable. You will want a good, practical swim ladder and maybe boarding or swim platform. Spares for everything, including wire enough to replace any two or more parts of your standing rigging, and the ability to cut and terminate the ends appropriately, and plenty of engine spares.

Finally, the subject nobody likes to talk about... singlehanding. Download the Rules from the USCG website, or go to Worst Marine and buy a copy or get one on Amazon. For now, immediately, download it, but you will need to have a copy on the boat. Right now, read Rule 5. No, I won't tell you what it says or quote it or even give you a link. You MUST GET USED TO DOING FOR YOURSELF, and now is a great time to start. Read Rule 5, and tell me if it is or is not in accordance with the Rules, to sail alone on multi-day, let alone multi-month or year, voyages, why, or why not.

Not saying you "can't" sail solo. I have, and I will again, I am sure. But if you are even giving lip service to the Rules and keeping a proper lookout, you and your rack (that's where you sleep, normally, AKA your berth or "bed") will become forgotten strangers. If you are irresponsible and reckless, in mid ocean you will just blow it off, set the steering vane, and go below and sleep for a few hours between sheets with your favorite blankey keeping you cozy and your pillow from home cradling your sleepy noggin and infusing it with pleasant, carefree dreams. I "sleep" out in the cockpit with an egg timer, if conditions permit, between scans of the horizon with the Mk 1 eyeballs. You can install an AIS and even run your Radar, and set proximity and minimum CPA alarms, but that is no substitute for a proper (or in my case, nearly, or practically, proper) lookout by sight and sound and all other methods available and practical. There are plenty of solo sailors out there, and their level of compliance with Rule 5 and the normal prudent practices of seamen, varies greatly. Up to you, Buckaroo. You may want crew to accompany you to and from your intended cruising grounds, or maybe permanent crew. But you will have plenty of time to think about that.

Many dream the dream. Few actually do the do. The real journey is your journey of self discovery and evaluation of your will and ability and commitment. You can honorably stop anywhere along the path to ownership of an ocean crossing yacht and competent world circling Navigator, Skipper, and Engineer. Keep your eye on the long term goal but be ready to settle for a lesser and more agreeable state of yachthood.

[Tortuga's Lie]

Originally Posted by ohdrinkboy

I wish I could get over the IP gelcoat color......yuck.

I agree about the ivory color, although there are a few custom Island Packets that are blue and a few that have white gel coats.......a few.

[Lawnmower]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

For this 30-40’ range for expedition type sailing I would be all over boats like Ovni (aluminium monohull with centreboard)

I haven't seen one in my budget but I am curious about these boats, my one concern with them is the righting capability, which is much lower than for any IP.

[Lawnmower]

Originally Posted by Tortuga's Lie

I know you are pretty much settled on an Island Packet, and that's fine, but I would throw in a Shannon 37 in the mix...............just a thought.

A great looking boat!

[Lawnmower]

Originally Posted by Jammer

I am not an IP owner but will nonetheless break with Cruisers Forum tradition and try to answer the question you asked rather than some other question.


As you may be aware, IP has made a business out of designing and building boats specifically for people who have the same goals that you do: people who don't necessarily care much about sailing but want a platform for gunkholing.


If you're not familiar with the term, gunkholing is the practice of cruising to remote, often shallow, bays and sounds and spending nights there at anchor.


The IP design brief is to design a boat that: maximizes interior and cockpit space for a given length, maximizes tankage, minimizes draft, simplifies handling, and exhibits a high quality interior fit and finish. These goals are achieved at the expense of sailing performance, particularly upwind performance.


A look at the PHRF handicaps bears this out: PHRF New England - Handicapping - Base Handicaps - The IP 38 has a handicap of 168 while most other 38' cruising boats (Catalina, Hunter, Beneteau, Tartan) have handicaps in the 110-120 range. That's an enormous difference, nearly one minute per mile on a circular course. In practice the performance will be relatively similar downwind or on a reach with a much larger difference in upwind performance.


If your attitude towards that is, "so what, I'll start the motor or wait until the wind changes" then an Island Packet could be right for you.


At $125k the newer IPs will be out of your budget as they are a) sought after on the used market and b) expensive when new. A 35' boat is probably too small for what you want to do so you would be looking at older IP38s and may have difficulty finding one in good shape.


Best wishes for a successful search.

Haha thanks, gunkholing is exactly what I want to do!

[Lawnmower]

Originally Posted by jaysawyer

I have an Island Packet 40 for 3 years now. I think they are a good choice for your plans. They will hold their value in case your plans change! Also they are a good safe boat for you while you gain experience.

The Caliber is another very similar boat to consider. I would avoid fin keels if you are intending to live on the boat and travel the ocean.

You will want to spend as long as possible sailing the boat locally and some overnight sails to gain experience and discover all the repairs needed. This could take a year or three. Check the mast height with your fixed bridges in your home area. You will need to discover if you can accept the stress of ocean sailing, the tiring and uncomfortable wave action, the difficulty of docking, the storms, anchoring, the constant list of repairs and replacements, and if the occaisional beautiful sail that can make it all worth it.

I am in my third year of this discovery and it has been eventful! Time now to take most everything off the boat to prepare for hurricaine season.

Great, thanks, yes! I'm thinking about buying in the caribbean, spending a year or two there before heading through the canal and beyond.

[Lawnmower]

Originally Posted by Rockinar

At this stage you have zero experience and zero resume and shopping for 35 and 40 foot boat. Nobody will insure you even if you decided to buy a boat tomorrow. Insurance gonna wanna see something. Its not like buying car insurance where you just ring up anyone you want and they give you a quote and you give them a credit card and you are on the road. There will be lots of questions, rejections and requirements.

If youre boat shopping, Id be signing up for ASA courses TODAY. Take ASA 101 thu 104 at least so you have ammo when trying to get insurance.

I know, I know - already doing the courses.

[Lawnmower]

Originally Posted by Rockinar

I have an Island Packet 29. I could have went 32 to 38. I just like my boat on the small side for solo sailing. Its cheaper. Rigging, sails, engine, fuel economy, parts, slip fees, haul outs, bottom paint, insurance....on and on. Smaller will be cheaper. And its just easier to handle. I dont even need a windlass. On a smaller boat its an option, not a requirement, I dont new bow thrusters, easier to navigate in marinas. And since you will be solo, how much boat can you handle when it all goes wrong? Go watch Josh Posts video on Youtube when he tries to solo across from Florida to Bahamas and it all goes wrong. He end up scared straight and crying. I dont think he soloed after that. Auto pilot went out in a storm, he could not get the sails in, lost control of the boat. Lived to tell the tale, but learned a lesson. "How much boat can you handle when it all goes wrong?" Anyone can handle a 50 foot on a sunny day in 3 foot swell on a reach.

Nothing about sailboat ownership is cheap. This is why I choose smaller. Not cheap, but cheaper. Sailing is the most expensive way to get somewhere for free.

Do you think there is also a safety and speed factor to balance that out with a larger boat? I did a bunch of courses on a 38 and thought it felt like a good size.

[Lawnmower]

Originally Posted by thomm225

A couple at my dock bought a beautiful IP a couple years ago with similar plans.

That boat is for sale now.

Link please