Island Packet advice?

[geoleo]

Originally Posted by Pfeiffer

I am currently looking for a cruising boat in the 35-38 foot range. full keel or keel/skeg rudder. It seems like the IP boats are by far the roomiest and what I have read, a very high-quality boat. I looked at a Pacific Seacraft 37 Crealock, that I fell in love with, but it was too small inside. I really like the second full cabin and not just a quarter berth.
I am in California and there is only one IP for sale on the West Coast. a 350 in pretty rough condition. I found at least a dozen IPs on the East Coast for sale and am planning on a trip to look at some of them. I understand they are manufactured on the East Coast: 35, 350, 37, 370,380. all of them 1997-2004.

It seems several of them have Heat/AC, which I have never seen on a California boat. Some have bow thrusters. Bow thrusters don't mean much to me, maybe nice, but do they affect speed?

Are there any other boats that I should consider? Up to a max of $150,000. No Catalinas, Hunters, etc.
Any comments about shipping boat to California? thanks.

I have had 3 Island Packets, A 27,32, and a 44. The best models are IMHO, the 40 and the 44. The 35 is bargy and helpless upwind. The 32 is nice and the 44/45 great . The 44 with a draft of 5' is one of the very few true non C\B offshore shallow draft cruising sailboat that can actually sail
well upwind. Even has a bathtub.

[Pfeiffer]

Thanks for all the input. The Estero did not come up on Boattrader, but I found it on Yachworld. I will try to see it next week.
I definitely want a full keel or a full/skeg rudder. I am planning on long-distance cruising. I have hit a reef on a Mexico trip and was glad I had a full keel. (maybe I should just avoid reefs)
The Catalinas are great boats for California and there are many available. but I want a heavier boat and am willing to give up some sailing performance.

[robert sailor]

When you say long distance cruising....is that long distance coastal cruising or are you planning on crossing oceans?

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Pfeiffer

I am currently looking for a cruising boat in the 35-38 foot range. full keel or keel/skeg rudder...Bow thrusters don't mean much to me, maybe nice, but do they affect speed?...

I find it sort of amusing that you mention wanting a full keel/skeg rudder IP and then worrying about the possible speed loss of a bow thruster.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by Pfeiffer

Thanks for all the input. The Estero did not come up on Boattrader, but I found it on Yachworld. I will try to see it next week.
I definitely want a full keel or a full/skeg rudder. I am planning on long-distance cruising. I have hit a reef on a Mexico trip and was glad I had a full keel. (maybe I should just avoid reefs)
The Catalinas are great boats for California and there are many available. but I want a heavier boat and am willing to give up some sailing performance.

I'm sitting in the Tuomotus, theres approx 20 boats here where I am at present, none have a full keel.

Of course its your choice and you should buy what you want but you definitely dont need a full keel to cross oceans.

[Lost Horizons]

Originally Posted by wingssail

I find it sort of amusing that you mention wanting a full keel/skeg rudder IP and then worrying about the possible speed loss of a bow thruster.

I wonder why it amuses you. My IP is faster than was the Beneteau I had before. The WL is only one foot longer with IP. (Oh, and it has a thruster, which Bene did not have.)

[Lost Horizons]

Originally Posted by Pfeiffer

Thanks for all the input. The Estero did not come up on Boattrader, but I found it on Yachworld. I will try to see it next week.

I wonder what you think about it. I have not seen the Estero/360, but my hull is based on what they have, so you would get almost the same interior volume. Don’t listen to what people say about the keel. It is the best design overall, very safe and practical. With it you don’t have to be religious with crab pots and you will not wrap anchor rode around the keel while anchored in tidal currents. And it points quite well with good sails. You can easily sail 40 degrees off apparent wind at 40% of apparent wind speed.
The major thing that I do not care for with the IP line is the keel stepped mast. I would prefer a compression pole instead, but they would not change what they deem safety items; I asked. A couple examples they would not do for me is a check valve in the bilge pump and a dripless propeller shaft seal. They did, however, do a major redesign of saloon furniture to accommodate venter washer/dryer combo.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Lost Horizons

I wonder why it amuses you. My IP is faster than was the Beneteau I had before. The WL is only one foot longer with IP. (Oh, and it has a thruster, which Bene did not have.)

Well, I've seen a fair number of IP yachts and many, many Beneteau yachts over the years and have sailed on and against quite a few (as well as many other full keel yachts).

I've seen no IP's and very few full keel yachts which had the performance of a typical fin keel boat, including most, if not all, Beneteaus, (however your experience is obviously different) and the numbers on the IP's would not seem to indicate much speed potential. That is not what people buy them for. I have very good friends with IP boats. They buy them for their perceived build quality, and probably interior design, not for speed.

I was being a bit cheeky by expressing amusement that someone who is considering an Island Packet would also be worried about the speed detriment of a bow thruster. I truly feel that it shows a lack of experience with sailboats.

The concept that one should get a full keel so as to avoid damage when hitting reefs is akin to buying a Checker Marathon automobile so that fender benders don't do much damage. The OP had one really good idea however, he said, ("Maybe I should just avoid reefs").

[a64pilot]

I wish I had a quarter for every thread about how bad is this damage from a fin keel boat being run aground, Or should I buy this boat with these rusted keel bolts etc, are these rust stains at the keel / hull interface bad, how do you replace keel bolts and every time something happens to a fin keel, people rally around and blame the owner because it must have been run aground and they didn’t immediately have the boat hauled and keel dropped and boat inspected by a pro. Didn’t we just have another one last week?
There seem to be more keel threads on buying used than wet decks or rigging.
Who wants a boat that has to be pulled and the keel dropped and possibly very expensive repairs done for running aground?
I understand if your sailing grounds are deep, but where I spend a lot of time you get used to sailing with two feet under the keel, and five feet is deep water, and you do occasionally go aground
The newer IP’s are I believe slower than the older ones as a guess, as we travelled with a 420 last year and they had to motorsail to keep up with us. And I would have expected the opposite.
But your right, IP’s are not a performance boat, for many performance takes a back seat.
I feel most must be that way, cause they all seem to drive SUV’s which except for rare exceptions, are true pigs.

But then it’s apparently not just fin keel mono’s, we were in Salt Pond Bahamas during the lockdown with a Leopard that had bumped ground and was leaking from I guess they have a false keel or something and they were looking for some underwater epoxy to temp fix the leak.

But to reiterate, an IP with good Sail's and decently sailed, is not a slow boat. They aren’t nimble and are not the boat to sail in the bay, rails in the water in 12 kts of wind, and they certainly are not the boat to race on weekends, or race at all probably. But they are good Cruising boats, designed in my opinion for mostly coastal cruising, and in shallow waters.
Mine anyway is not a good light wind boat, but where I sail if it’s light wind, wait until tomorrow, cause light winds are rare. I can’t keep a good Anin storm ensign for six months, the winds wear it out.

But in a beer can race against a Beneteau, an IP is way out of its league, it would be like a Chevy Suburban against my Mazdaspeed in Autocross. But to proclaim the Miata as the better car because it’s faster around the cones isn’t correct either, because it sucks on the highway on a long trip.

An IP knocking around the Caribbean is hard to beat, and not just because the keel, it’s because they have more storage, nice interior, quality furniture and better ventilation than most boats, and on passage is much more comfortable than most, with little heeling. 15 degrees is max on mine, sure you can push her over, but you gain no speed. They don’t slam unless in real bad weather, burying the bow, water over the whole front of the boat bad, and they don’t hobby horse, ever. And they carry weight much better than most boats.
I hang a 10’6” dinghy in davits with a 20 HP motor and a kilowatt of Solar panels, all behind the stern, and 65 kg of anchors and 300’ of chain in the locker, along with 1,000’ of rope rode, and left over room in the locker for my drogue and sea anchor and big Yanmar parts box. Most boats first can’t do that and if you did it would hobby horse severely.

When sailing around at anchor (which all boats do) the bow sprit keeps the chain from chewing up the bow, and there is so much reserve buoyancy on the stern and it so high I’ve yet to meet someone who has been pooped in an IP. Of course it can happen, but I think it’s quite rare.
However in my opinion an IP is very capable of world cruising, but they are sort of optimized for coastal cruising, so if world cruising is for sure what you want, there are maybe better boats for that.

[Lost Horizons]

Originally Posted by wingssail

The concept that one should get a full keel so as to avoid damage when hitting reefs is akin to buying a Checker Marathon automobile so that fender benders don't do much damage.

First of all, IP does not have a full keel.
Second, a major reason for the configuration they have is exactly the one you expressed above, so it does not fall off when you hit something. (Not if, but when.)

[MicHughV]

not a " full keel' as defined by yachts of yore....

how about " full keel with cutaway forefoot"....better ??

[Lost Horizons]

How about a “long keel”?

[MicHughV]

or a " long-ish" keel...which can denote sortoff long....kinda long...somewhat long..depends on how you look at it long...longer than a fin keel, but shorter than traditional long keel...hey, it's my boat, I can call it what I want long.....long-ish meaning not short-ish...

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

I wish I had a quarter for every thread about how bad is this damage from a fin keel boat being run aground, Or should I buy this boat with these rusted keel bolts etc, are these rust stains at the keel / hull interface bad, how do you replace keel bolts and every time something happens to a fin keel, people rally around and blame the owner because it must have been run aground and they didn’t immediately have the boat hauled and keel dropped and boat inspected by a pro. Didn’t we just have another one last week?
There seem to be more keel threads on buying used than wet decks or rigging.
Who wants a boat that has to be pulled and the keel dropped and possibly very expensive repairs done for running aground?
I understand if your sailing grounds are deep, but where I spend a lot of time you get used to sailing with two feet under the keel, and five feet is deep water, and you do occasionally go aground
The newer IP’s are I believe slower than the older ones as a guess, as we travelled with a 420 last year and they had to motorsail to keep up with us. And I would have expected the opposite.
But your right, IP’s are not a performance boat, for many performance takes a back seat.
I feel most must be that way, cause they all seem to drive SUV’s which except for rare exceptions, are true pigs.

But then it’s apparently not just fin keel mono’s, we were in Salt Pond Bahamas during the lockdown with a Leopard that had bumped ground and was leaking from I guess they have a false keel or something and they were looking for some underwater epoxy to temp fix the leak.

But to reiterate, an IP with good Sail's and decently sailed, is not a slow boat. They aren’t nimble and are not the boat to sail in the bay, rails in the water in 12 kts of wind, and they certainly are not the boat to race on weekends, or race at all probably. But they are good Cruising boats, designed in my opinion for mostly coastal cruising, and in shallow waters.
Mine anyway is not a good light wind boat, but where I sail if it’s light wind, wait until tomorrow, cause light winds are rare. I can’t keep a good Anin storm ensign for six months, the winds wear it out.

But in a beer can race against a Beneteau, an IP is way out of its league, it would be like a Chevy Suburban against my Mazdaspeed in Autocross. But to proclaim the Miata as the better car because it’s faster around the cones isn’t correct either, because it sucks on the highway on a long trip.

An IP knocking around the Caribbean is hard to beat, and not just because the keel, it’s because they have more storage, nice interior, quality furniture and better ventilation than most boats, and on passage is much more comfortable than most, with little heeling. 15 degrees is max on mine, sure you can push her over, but you gain no speed. They don’t slam unless in real bad weather, burying the bow, water over the whole front of the boat bad, and they don’t hobby horse, ever. And they carry weight much better than most boats.
I hang a 10’6” dinghy in davits with a 20 HP motor and a kilowatt of Solar panels, all behind the stern, and 65 kg of anchors and 300’ of chain in the locker, along with 1,000’ of rope rode, and left over room in the locker for my drogue and sea anchor and big Yanmar parts box. Most boats first can’t do that and if you did it would hobby horse severely.

When sailing around at anchor (which all boats do) the bow sprit keeps the chain from chewing up the bow, and there is so much reserve buoyancy on the stern and it so high I’ve yet to meet someone who has been pooped in an IP. Of course it can happen, but I think it’s quite rare.
However in my opinion an IP is very capable of world cruising, but they are sort of optimized for coastal cruising, so if world cruising is for sure what you want, there are maybe better boats for that.

Absolutely, A64pilot. I might quibble about a couple of points but of course you are right about the IP's, and several of my best friends, (IP owners) of whom I have the greatest respect, concur with you.

Back to the point: if the OP is worried about the speed detriment of a bow thruster, it's odd that he is choosing a full keel boat (or a cutaway forefoot boat).

Now, about your claim "about how bad is this damage from a fin keel boat being run aground, Or should I buy this boat with these rusted keel bolts etc, are these rust stains at the keel / hull interface bad, how do you replace keel bolts and every time something happens to a fin keel"

It's really not that way. I live in an area where most of the boats are fin keel boats, and many of them have had damage on the keel from running aground. Minimal damage, not catastrophic damage. More often than not, if the grounding was on mud or sand, it is only paint scraped off. I can't see how that would be any different on a full keel boat. I've run aground plenty of times, one time at 7 knots hitting right at the tip of the keel. No damage to anything but the tip of the keel, easily repaired. We don't know of anyone who feels that a boat needs to be hauled and the keel dropped after keel impacts. That is a scare story. Yes, lightly built racing boats which have heavy groundings must be inspected. Same with full keel boats. Are you really advocating that after a keel impact with rock or coral bottom you don't need to inspect it?

And yes, fin keels need to firmly attached, and damage to the hull or keel bolts needs to be attended to. But the worst damage I've seen to a grounding was on a Westsail 43, a very stout, mostly full keel boat.

[MicHughV]

I don't the IP is a bad boat either...jes' razzin' on the mod a little...I would not want one, but that is not to say, it is a bad boat. A64 pretty much summed up the pro's and con's of the IP and he should know as he has one, the only thing we have are " opinion's"