Is it OK resell my Survey?

[smj]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

Not a lawyer but ...... You guys don't seem to understand the difference between liability insurance and E&O insurance so I'll have to take your arguments with a grain of salt.

PS. All SAMS surveyors have liability insurance. Few have E&O and those that do don't want to tell you for obvious reasons

So what is the difference?


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[meirriba]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

Not a lawyer but ...... You guys don't seem to understand the difference between liability insurance and E&O insurance so I'll have to take your arguments with a grain of salt.

PS. All SAMS surveyors have liability insurance. Few have E&O and those that do don't want to tell you for obvious reasons

Errors & Omissions (E&O) insurance is a specific type of liability insurance.
So what exactly did you try to say?

[Rustic Charm]

I can't believe this thread is still going after 7 pages.

And I would have thought, so many experienced boaters would not be arguing over the legalities of something like a contract.

[S/V Illusion]

Originally Posted by Rustic Charm

I can't believe this thread is still going after 7 pages.

And I would have thought, so many experienced boaters would not be arguing over the legalities of something like a contract.

It's cheap entertainment. FYI - a survey is not a contract. The distinction, particularly in this context, is monumental.

[Rustic Charm]

Originally Posted by S/V Illusion

It's cheap entertainment. FYI - a survey is not a contract. The distinction, particularly in this context, is monumental.

[farm sail]

Originally Posted by bstreep

Ugh. Dealing with folks that don't know what they are talking about, on a public forum.

1) I'm a Certified Appraiser - and have been for 15 years.

2) Our single largest expense, as a company, is liability insurance. By far. I imagine it is also the case with a surveyor.

3) A survey contains (generally) a value opinion, commonly called an "appraisal".

4) In several courts, it has been determined and ruled that an "appraisal" is confidential work product that is protected by US copyright law, that belongs only to the appraiser and the client. No other users are permitted, nor can any other users rely upon it, nor can it be distributed. This is also to limit liability to the original purchaser. By the way, if it's for insurance purposes, it probably belongs to the insurance company.

5) If you want to go ahead and ignore this, by all means, do so. At your own risk. When you get sued, and lose, and have to pay court costs, don't cry here. In discovery, they will find this thread, by the way. And your name in it.

6) Think of this as well, folks. In Texas, if you sell a house, and you, the seller, provide a land survey to the buyers, YOU now have taken on ALL of the responsibility of the accuracy of that survey. That's the law here, and in most states. See, it's because the survey company only wants a single liability - you, not the next guy. Yes, it's a LAND survey. But here's the deal - YOU profited in the sale of your boat survey. You NOW have burdened yourself with the results of that survey, and the surveyor has NONE. ZERO responsibility. But you do now... Good luck in court on THAT one too.

P.S. A Chief Counsel for a LIABILITY company better know liability law pretty damn well. And he does.

P.S.S Anyone that thinks copies can't be traced, is just wrong... Each printer and copier has its own signature. Big brother...

your diatribe is worth the paper it is printed on. by your own admision you "IMAGINE" this to be similar to something you have dealings with in your profession. you claim things to be such and such in court yet dont provide case law reference. your opinion based on your imagination is a 100% worthless contribution to this discusion

[TeddyDiver]

Originally Posted by bstreep

Ugh. Dealing with folks that don't know what they are talking about, on a public forum.

3) A survey contains (generally) a value opinion, commonly called an "appraisal".

I really hope that a surveyor would keep their "appraisals" for himself and have the survey based on facts alone..

BR Teddy

[meirriba]

Originally Posted by S/V Illusion

....... FYI - a survey is not a contract. The distinction, particularly in this context, is monumental.

contract:

n. an agreement with specific terms between two or more persons or entities in which there is a promise to do something in return for a valuable benefit known as consideration.
The existence of a contract requires finding the following factual elements: a) an offer;
b) an acceptance of that offer which results in a meeting of the minds;
c) a promise to perform;
d) a valuable consideration (which can be a promise or payment in some form);
e) a time or event when performance must be made (meet commitments); f) terms and conditions for performance, including fulfilling promises;
Contracts can be either written or oral, but oral contracts are more difficult to prove and in most jurisdictions the time to sue on the contract is shorter (such as two years for oral compared to four years for written).
In some cases a contract can consist of several documents, such as a series of letters, orders, offers and counteroffers.
Read more: Legal Dictionary | Law.com

Survey: is the outcome of section c: actual performance of the 'promise to perform'

Any more legal questions?

[Jim Cate]

In a world where professional brokers have a hard time establishing a reasonable value on a used boat, it is unrealistic to expect a surveyor, whose skill sets lie in different areas, to provide "an appraisal" when they survey a boat. Their function is quite different from that of a real estate appraiser.

In many cases (personal experience) the survey report will include a guesstimated replacement value for the boat. This is a somewhat arbitrary number, according to a couple of surveyors of my acquaintance, drummed up for a potential insurer's use, and only vaguely represents the boat's current value. Again, a different function from the RE appraiser for this figure would not normally be used in price negotiation. Only technical flaws in the vessel that are discovered are generally used in such negotiations.

I note that several posters who claim professional expertise in the applicable law seem to disagree completely on the resale issue. The cloudiness of this seems to indicate that it is not an issue that has been worked out in the courts for the specific instance of ownership of a marine survey. No one seems to have been able to point out a case where a re-sold survey was taken to court, or even argued about publicly. Thus my non-binding opinion is that if the OP was to re-sell his report, little would come of it. If it seems morally wrong to the OP, then he should follow his principles and not sell it. The black helicopters hovering nearby are likely looking for other wrong-doers!

Cheers,

Jim

[Rustic Charm]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

In a world where professional brokers have a hard time establishing a reasonable value on a used boat, it is unrealistic to expect a surveyor, whose skill sets lie in different areas, to provide "an appraisal" when they survey a boat. Their function is quite different from that of a real estate appraiser.

In many cases (personal experience) the survey report will include a guesstimated replacement value for the boat. This is a somewhat arbitrary number, according to a couple of surveyors of my acquaintance, drummed up for a potential insurer's use, and only vaguely represents the boat's current value. Again, a different function from the RE appraiser for this figure would not normally be used in price negotiation. Only technical flaws in the vessel that are discovered are generally used in such negotiations.

I note that several posters who claim professional expertise in the applicable law seem to disagree completely on the resale issue. The cloudiness of this seems to indicate that it is not an issue that has been worked out in the courts for the specific instance of ownership of a marine survey. No one seems to have been able to point out a case where a re-sold survey was taken to court, or even argued about publicly. Thus my non-binding opinion is that if the OP was to re-sell his report, little would come of it. If it seems morally wrong to the OP, then he should follow his principles and not sell it. The black helicopters hovering nearby are likely looking for other wrong-doers!

Cheers,

Jim

oh ***** you seen them too I knew it, everyone said I was nuts, but I knew they were there

[ValiantV]

I very gently asked my surveyor if I could resell his survey in the case I rejected the boat. He said "Absolutely! You paid for it and it's yours to do as you please with." I doubt a certified marine survey who agrees to abide by a code of ethics would say that were it not true.

[Rustic Charm]

Originally Posted by ValiantV

I very gently asked my surveyor if I could resell his survey in the canse I rejected the boat. He said "Absolutely! You paid for it and it's yours to do as you please with." I doubt a certified marine survey who agrees to abide by a code of ethics would say that were it not true.

Two years

All that means is that your surveyor is content for you to sell it. Not a problem. You have his consent. If he had a problem with it, it would prisbly be written on the survey.

[ValiantV]

Originally Posted by Rustic Charm

Two years

All that means is that your surveyor is content for you to sell it. Not a problem. You have his consent. If he had a problem with it, it would prisbly be written on the survey.

If he retains any "claim" to what could possibly be construed as his property, that he acknowledges my right to do with it as I please is all I need.

When someone is "commissioned" to produce something and paid for it, the product belongs to the buyer. The producer has been compensated.

If any buyers feel they are okay with language that implies the surveyor retains ownership of something THEY have paid for, that's their prerogative.

If I'm asked to build you a barn or paint you a portrait - YOU own the work. I've already traded my labor and skill (?) For your money.

Why this is such an issue us a mystery to me. I've clarified it with my surveyor ahead of time. I suggest all those contracting for surveying services do likewise.

[Cheechako]

If the survey doesn't specify intellectual property or is otherwise worded so you own it, why not?

[Rustic Charm]

Originally Posted by ValiantV

If he retains any "claim" to what could possibly be construed as his property, that he acknowledges my right to do with it as I please is all I need.

When someone is "commissioned" to produce something and paid for it, the product belongs to the buyer. The producer has been compensated.

If any buyers feel they are okay with language that implies the surveyor retains ownership of something THEY have paid for, that's their prerogative.

If I'm asked to build you a barn or paint you a portrait - YOU own the work. I've already traded my labor and skill (?) For your money.

Why this is such an issue us a mystery to me. I've clarified it with my surveyor ahead of time. I suggest all those contracting for surveying services do likewise.

Well, I'm not going to argue about it. You have his consent and that's all that matters. We are in agreement that you have the right to sell it. If you read through the thread you would have seen that's all people were suggesting. Some survey's specifically have it written into the document that it can't be resold. That's the issue.