Guns on board. Yes/no

[hasse_A]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

OK guys don't get upset, the torpedo thing is I'm sure a joke, if nothing else I'd imagine it would slow me down from 6+ kts to maybe 2?

No, it should not have be that large. I have a towed generator 30 m behind the boat and it slows the boat much less than .5 knots when I am doing 6 knots.
If the torpedo is 10 cm in diameter and 1/2 to 1 m in length I don't think it would be a problem if you shape it correctly.
Even with that size you would be able to stake several kilos of dynamite into it. I imagine just one kilo would make a darn good blast.
I, at least would not like to be near it's side when hundreds of ball bearing balls comes flying your direction. It would probably sink most boats used by the pirates.

[a64pilot]

Towed explosive you are describing reminds me of a Claymore mine.
Ever heard George Carlins skit on mines?
mine? No it's not mine, I don't want the thing, see if you can get someone else to take it
Why are they called mine anyway?

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by Smokeys Kitchen

Just wondering where the OP has gotten off to while we all debate the topic (again)?

Tends to lead credence to tossing a stink bomb and running doesn't it.

[Rohan]

Originally Posted by skipmac

Want to know how useful a gun will be on a boat? Go out in even moderate conditions like 4-5' seas, toss a bottle in the water, let it float off about 100 yards and try hitting it with a rifle or even a shotgun. I've been shooting and hunting since I was six, was a pretty good wing shot used to match shoot 22s. I tried shooting bottles off my sailboat with a rifle and never came close. Could not even come close 100' away, much less 100 yards. I doubt I could hit a small boat at 100 yards.

If that's true, then pirates wouldn't use guns either. Yet they do. And pirates are often in small motorboats or RIBs which pitch up and down even more than most yachts.

[Rohan]

Here are some alternatives that won't get you in trouble with the law in most cases:

1. Bow and arrow. Not kidding, today's bows and crossbows are pretty damned powerful. Plus you can use them to go bowfishing.

2. Wasp spray. They are almost as noxious as pepper spray and powerful enough to hit 20 feet away.

3. Carry a non-firing replica. A shotgun that is designed to look realistic but not fire will probably be legal in most places while still acting as a deterrent.

4. Someone mentioned flare guns. That is one possibility, but if I understand correctly, some countries have banned those too, like the British Virgin Islands and the Bahamas.

5. Don't go anywhere near Somalia!! Apparently piracy is way down compared to years ago, but it's still a huge risk.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by Rohan

If that's true, then pirates wouldn't use guns either. Yet they do. And pirates are often in small motorboats or RIBs which pitch up and down even more than most yachts.

Pirate high on khat firing an AK47 on auto at the bridge of a ship doesn't really care what he hits if anything. He has nothing to loose, you do.

Most folk couldn't hit a moving target at 100m, even trained soldiers have a problem because they just don't practise enough.

Pete

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by Rohan

4. Someone mentioned flare guns. That is one possibility, but if I understand correctly, some countries have banned those too, like the British Virgin Islands and the Bahamas.

Plus England

Originally Posted by Rohan

Don't go anywhere near Somalia!! Apparently piracy is way down compared to years ago, but it's still a huge risk.

How far off are you advising? Lynn Rival was 60 miles to the SW of the Seychelles when captured. That's 700 miles from Mogadishu.

Pete

[GrowleyMonster]

Originally Posted by S/V Illusion

Good thing the guys comprising Seal Team 6 successfully rescuing Captain Phillips didn't know that

Big difference between firing from a small sailboat and firing from even a fairly small ship like a destroyer. Conditions that will move a sailboat like a cork might barely be noticeable on a ship, and the motion of a ship is much more regular when it does move. I think he meant firing from a small yacht. Additionally, the shooters in the Maersk Alabama incident were highly trained marksmen who practice regularly. A lot. You really can't compare their skill level with the average yachtsman who probably doesn't even spend $100/mo on ammo.

I have often amused myself by shooting at stuff floating on the water. It can be quite challenging and even frustrating.

[tuffr2]

You can watch a Navy Destroyer shoot at a pirate vessel. Hundreds of rounds and a few hits. YouTube is great.

[GrowleyMonster]

Originally Posted by Rohan

If that's true, then pirates wouldn't use guns either. Yet they do. And pirates are often in small motorboats or RIBs which pitch up and down even more than most yachts.

A pirate doesn't necessarily have to hit what he is shooting at. Just the intimidation factor can often be enough. After all, even though Mr Pirate on his bouncy skiff is just a "spray and pray" marksman, you never know when one of those poorly aimed bullets has your name on it.

[estarzinger]

There are several poster's who say the pirates will out gun you, or that you will not be able to hit anything . . . .

But

. . . . .

I am only aware of one incident where a combat experienced/trained yachtsman directly took on pirate . . . . and he "won"

two steel sailboats travelling together. The rear one with skipper (a friend of ours) ex us military with Vietnam riverine combat experience. Had a shot gun. They were attacked by two pirate skiffs, each with 5 men on board (ak's and rpg's). Our friend crouched down in his cockpit until one boat was quite close, then popped up and killed them all. The other sailboat turned and rammed and sunk the second skiff. Both sailboats had bullet marks on them, no rpg hits.

Both crews say it pretty much ruined their circumnavigations because the incident so overshadowed all the good experienced they had had.

So, this is not a recommendation to even think about replicating it. But it is just a factoid that a really competent guy with a low brow weapon can do pretty serious damage to multiple undisciplined guys with ak's and rpg's.

That aside . . . I agree with the general consensus that if you are asking . . . . it is generally better to not have guns on a worldwide cruising boat. if you are as competent/experienced as our friend you do not need outside advice on this.

[Steadman Uhlich]

Up above ESTARZINGER mentioned an incident where two boats were sailing past the Yemen coast during their circumnavigation and they fought off a pirate attack.

Here is an excerpt from the 2007 NOONSITE(dot com) report on the 2005 incident. I am going to bold a few points I think bear consideration.
___________________

"On 8 March 2005, two sailing yachts, Mahdi & Gandalf, were moving SW 30 miles off the coast of Yemen proceeding to the port of Aden from Salalah, Oman.

At about 0900 two outboard powered boats, about 25 feet long with 3 men in each one, passed off our stern moving south at about 25 knots. An hour or two later they returned, one coming quite close and looking us over carefully. The second boat passed our bows but quite a ways away. These boats were obviously not engaged in a normal activity such as fishing, etc. At that time we were south of Al Mukalla, Yemen. The area around Al Mukalla is well documented as being a piracy problem area and we started watching carefully for anything out of the ordinary.

At about 1600 we observed two different boats approaching us head on from the SW. These boats were 25-30 feet long, had higher freeboard and diesel powered. They were coming very fast directly at us. There were 4 men in each boat. The boats separated at about 200 yards, one boat ahead of the other, coming down Mahdi’s port side and firing into the cockpit.

The other boat was firing an automatic weapon at both Gandalf and Mahdi from ahead, more at Gandalf. These guys were shooting directly at the cockpits, and obviously intended to kill us.

The first boat swung around behind Mahdi’s stern to come up and board us. At that point I, Rod Nowlin aboard Mahdi and armed with a 12 gage shotgun loaded with 00 buckshot, started shooting into their boat. I forced them to keep their heads down so that they could not shoot at us. I am not sure I hit anyone at that point although I could see the driver of the boat crouched down behind a steering console. After firing 3 shots at them their engine started to smoke and I swung around to shoot at the boat ahead. At that point, I saw Jay Barry on Gandalf ram that boat amidships almost cutting it in two and turning it almost completely over. I turned back around to shoot again at the boat behind Mahdi and that is when they turned away from Mahdi and were heading toward the stern of Gandalf. Gandalf was beside us, about 100 feet away. The bow of the pirate’s boat came right up against Gandalf’s stern and two men stood up on the bow to board Gandalf. That was a serious and probably fateful error on their part. I shot both of them. That boat then veered away and I shot the driver, although I am not sure of the outcome because they were farther away and I did not knock him down like the other two.

Mahdi and Gandalf kept going at full speed to put as much distance between the pirates and us as possible. As soon as we were out of rifle range we looked back and both boats were drifting and appeared to be disabled.

If Jay on Gandalf had not had the presence of mind to veer over into one boat and ram it, the outcome of this attack would have been totally different. All they needed to do was stand off a ways and shoot us to pieces with automatic weapons. We were extremely lucky. We broadcast Mayday calls on all VHF and HF radio frequencies, including two HF emergency frequencies supplied by the US Coast Guard a few days before. The Coalition Forces in the area were supposed to be monitoring these frequencies. There was no response except from a commercial ship in the area on VHF 16 who approached and observed the disabled pirates for a bit, then sailed along side of us for 2-4 hours until dark to make sure we would be all right.

The pirates were well organized and well armed. There were at least 4 boats involved. They had set up a picket line out from the Yemen coast probably at least for 50-75 miles, so if you transited the area during the day they wouldn’t miss you. The two boats that attacked us appeared to have come from the south.

There has been speculation in the past that this ongoing piracy problem off the Yemen coast was being carried out by Somali pirates. Given the number, type of boats involved, and the direction the spotter boats came from, this does not appear to be correct in this case. This problem is getting worse and the pirate attacks are getting deadly. One could only expect that the Yemen Government will take more direct action. At the very least, allow yachts to group in Salalah, Oman and at some point on the NW Yemen coast to request an escort along the Yemen coast.

March 11, 2005

Rodney J. Nowlin, USN Retired

S/V Mahdi"
___________________

SOURCE: Violent Pirate Attack On Two Yachts Off Yemen —

You can find many more reports regarding "pirate" on the Noonsite site or via this link:
Noonsite —

[Capt Phil]

Originally Posted by ardbeg

OK my take on this. I am a gun nut, own 10, various calibers and lived in Africa 25 years and Latin America 5 years. I have visited or lived in many of the ports around Africa. The biggest risk in Africa ( apart from Somalia, Libya and Algeria) is to be screwed by either Law enforcement or Customs officers in these countries. Your boat is guaranteed to be well searched at least once, but probably many times. So I doubt you can hide weapons. So your offense will be that you do not have a permit for your guns in the port you are at. So they will seize the guns. Then there will be a big fine. That is what they are really after and it will be paid in cash. The cash will be split by the officials on board.
The next hurdle is that probably 1/3 of the coast of Africa speaks French. So it will be difficult to talk your way out of an issue if you do not speak French. More money! I had a friend who had his boat seized in Guinea, Conakry. Never got it back and he was Africa savvy.
The next hurdle is that a lot of the coast is covered by Chinese fishing boats. The fishermen are usually criminals so not nice guys. They could board you and there you need guns. There is no local police or coast guard to protect you. The problem is you lost your guns in the last port to the Customs officials.
So in conclusion, I would probably not carry guns sailing around Africa. I would however, carry a lot of 12 gauge flares with multiple pistols to fire them. They can do a lot of damage in an ugly situation. Just remember to fire them outside your cabin.
In my opinion African people are very friendly and for the most part harmless. They just want money. For the French countries I would carry lots of small Euros. Small USD can work as well. Good Luck.

I am with Ardbeg on this issue having spent many years in the Middle East, North and West Africa and well acquainted with gun laws around the world. Much of my time overseas from the US was spent with bodyguards, Embassy types who were supplied for protection and Blackwater types who exuded confidence and could look after them selves in many areas where a whiteman, particularly American was persona non grata!
The first question I would ask myself, "is this trip really necessary?" If the answer is no or maybe, I would find elsewhere to cruise.
The second question would be, "if I have a death wish, is this the cheapest most fun way I can do away with myself?"
I am no stranger to firearms and feel comfortable defending my self and loved ones and have done so.
Think carefully about carrying aboard... the US is one of the few countries you are able to do so.... frankly, I would leave home without it! Phil

[StuM]

Originally Posted by PortClydeMe

I have no idea where you spent your formative years, yet some people, myself included, are VERY good with hitting targets using firearms ... regardless if that is from a rolling boat, a bouncy Jeep, or from a soggy moss deep in the woods. When I aim, I usually score. "One percent"? Hahaha, really? You think so?

Bet you've never tried to hit something with a 106mm recoilless rifle from any sort of moving platform

[aaronede]

Planning a circumnavigation. I'm a gun guy. I own quite a few. Grew up with them. Hunt - all that.

I will not be taking any guns. Seems like a hassle and a lot of countries don't value self protection the same way that we Americans do.

If there is concern that I might need a gun in a specific place, guess where I'm not going and probably wouldn't want to go anyway?

It does suck having to avoid the Suez Canal and the Middle East, however. A fascinating culture in so many ways.