German Made Sailboats with Raised Deck Saloon Designed for Long Distance Cruising

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

. . .My view is most boats over 40 feet are well capable of water sailing">blue water sailing provided the crew knows what’s it’s doing and the boat is prepared for the sailing area.

I agree. Size makes a lot of difference, too. And for the great majority (like 99%) of sailors, extreme weather is simply never encountered anyway.

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

. . . I understand why people like to buy high end “ brands “. The world needs these people. But I remain sceptical that dollar for dollar you are getting a proportionately better boat and I’ve been in most of the these factories over the years.

Dollar for dollar surely not, but at some point you're not counting money -- provided of course you can afford it.

I was able to afford (through no genius of my own) a very strongly built, hand built boat, with everything structural including deck gear greatly overspecified, and I'm very glad I have her, as I do sail in some pretty wild places and do get into extreme weather from time to time. It's just an extra margin of confidence.

I'm sure I get by with something built a little lighter if I were on a tighter budget. Where I draw the line, however:

1. Flexy hulls built of uncored, thin GRP, like some of the Beneteaus of various years. SOME, not all of them. I really demand a rigid hull, and the hull needs to be either fully cored or built like one of those cement boats, to get that.

2. Hull liners. This cheapens construction greatly but makes the boat essentially disposable. Very hard to repair in case of a grounding, and almost impossible to renovate at a certain age. Makes reaching many components including even wiring and plumbing unreachable -- ugh.

Most other things I could probably deal with if I were on a budget. Some mass produced boats are really very nice -- the Jeanneaus up through the early 2000's were actually fully stick built, structurally very good. Nice boats. Deck gear is underspecified to my taste, but that could be upgraded.

Someone upthread complained about his Gebo ports on his Bavaria -- well, many expensive boats have these too. I believe you even find them in Oysters of the 90's. [Edit -- Mr. Google sez Gebo hull ports are used even in Oysters of the 2000's] My boat has Lewmar hatches, and Lewmar ports with plastic tabs to secure them. I think so long as these are properly attached in a properly strong opening, there is nothing wrong with these structurally. These big makers spend money on engineering. I've never heard of one of those ubiquitous Lewmar ports with plastic tabs, failing.

I do prefer those really expensive Italian hatches, forgot what they're called, with tempered glass in them and cast bronze hardware.

We changed all the ports on my previous boat for nickle plated bronze jobs with tempered glass in them -- gorgeous! But we didn't get the money back when we sold the boat.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I agree. Size makes a lot of difference, too. And for the great majority (like 99%) of sailors, extreme weather is simply never encountered anyway.



Dollar for dollar surely not, but at some point you're not counting money -- provided of course you can afford it.

I was able to afford (through no genius of my own) a very strongly built, hand built boat, with everything structural including deck gear greatly overspecified, and I'm very glad I have her, as I do sail in some pretty wild places and do get into extreme weather from time to time. It's just an extra margin of confidence.

I'm sure I get by with something built a little lighter if I were on a tighter budget. Where I draw the line, however:

1. Flexy hulls built of uncored, thin GRP, like some of the Beneteaus of various years. SOME, not all of them. I really demand a rigid hull, and the hull needs to be either fully cored or built like one of those cement boats, to get that.

2. Hull liners. This cheapens construction greatly but makes the boat essentially disposable. Very hard to repair in case of a grounding, and almost impossible to renovate at a certain age. Makes reaching many components including even wiring and plumbing unreachable -- ugh.

Most other things I could probably deal with if I were on a budget. Some mass produced boats are really very nice -- the Jeanneaus up through the early 2000's were actually fully stick built, structurally very good. Nice boats. Deck gear is underspecified to my taste, but that could be upgraded.

Someone upthread complained about his Gebo ports on his Bavaria -- well, many expensive boats have these too. I believe you even find them in Oysters of the 90's. [Edit -- Mr. Google sez Gebo hull ports are used even in Oysters of the 2000's] My boat has Lewmar hatches, and Lewmar ports with plastic tabs to secure them. I think so long as these are properly attached in a properly strong opening, there is nothing wrong with these structurally. These big makers spend money on engineering. I've never heard of one of those ubiquitous Lewmar ports with plastic tabs, failing.

I do prefer those really expensive Italian hatches, forgot what they're called, with tempered glass in them and cast bronze hardware.

We changed all the ports on my previous boat for nickle plated bronze jobs with tempered glass in them -- gorgeous! But we didn't get the money back when we sold the boat.

All well and good

The pudding proof remains. Ordinary AWB are crossing oceans, the vast majority make it without issue.

That’s not to say quality can’t be bought. It can of course. But it’s often obscured by profit margin small volume construction overheads and excessive cost structures.

[Anders]

I've been on 3 different Sirius at boatshows and they are amazing and very high on my "I want it" list

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Anders

I've been on 3 different Sirius at boatshows and they are amazing and very high on my "I want it" list

Super boat, one beside me in the marina. Absolutely mad money for the size. The same budget managed carefully would get you a custom build.

[Anders]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Super boat, one beside me in the marina. Absolutely mad money for the size. The same budget managed carefully would get you a custom build.

Not cheap but I was aboard the Moody 41DS in Southampton. Nice boat but at £564,000 typical sailaway price its close to the Sirius and I know which one I would buy...

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Anders

Not cheap but I was aboard the Moody 41DS in Southampton. Nice boat but at £564,000 typical sailaway price its close to the Sirius and I know which one I would buy...

The new DS is just crazy money for what it is ( a Hanse ) very poor systems engineering too

[Na Mara]

Sirius do cost a lot but you have to recall 3 things.

1 that view from the interior costs a lot of money if it’s to be done in a way that doesn’t jeopardize boat safety,

2 these are high quality semi custom boats and

3, the Sirius 35ds has similar internal volume to my Regina 43 (I know this because I seriously considered buying one over my Regina ) and the Sirius 40 has similar volume to most 50ft production boats.

Basically, you are getting a lot of boat for your money with a Sirius.

[Auklet]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Someone upthread complained about his Gebo ports on his Bavaria -- well, many expensive boats have these too. I believe you even find them in Oysters of the 90's. [Edit -- Mr. Google sez Gebo hull ports are used even in Oysters of the 2000's]

I guess I’ll take credit for that, but the hull ports in the 38E are not the same “animal” as the deck (house) portlights. The hull ports are thick glass rimmed in an aluminum frame, strongly hinged, and can be dogged very tight with twist knobs on a threaded metal stud. Very little surface area. When open, just large enough for good cross ventilation. Oyster quality for sure.

The 1999 Bavaria 38E is a nice boat. But it is a “mosaic” of fine workmanship and quality parts intermixed with lesser quality materials and construction. For example, the setting of the companionway washboards is very weak. Nothing like what one sees in the Beneteau. The ball values on the thru hulls are not high quality, IMO. The cheap handles have rusted off a couple of ‘em. I’ve replaced most with Groco bronze valves and thru hulls. Three left to go. Next time in the yard, which is soon. One of the originals broke off when the yard tech was removing it, etc. The decorative deck teak has detached in places but I’ve had it reset as needed. Stanchions are flimsily attached, not strongly as in most traditional yachts. Snap shackles come on the life gates instead of the nice pelican hooks, for which I’ve swapped out. Rutgerson blocks all around rather than Lewmar, not that I noticed much difference. Stuff like that.

[Benjamin Fry]

A 10 year old Moody 45 DS. Refit everything and add everything. Then spend the extra 250k on having fun. Mine is like new, but half the price.

[peanpe]

If you want to buy a really good German cruising yacht then look for a "Vilm": https://vilm.de/


These are real blue water boats that are similar in quality to a Hallberg Rassy. The only but high hurdle: They are very difficult to find, those who have them rarely give them back from their hands.

Even the substance of an old, used Vilm I or II from East German times is still enough to be successfully refitted again to become for a next life:
https://www.boots-boerse.de/230-sege...m-ii-decksalon

Look for a small "Vilm-101":

https://www.theyachtmarket.com/de/zu...en/segelboote/
or the larger mid-cockpit yacht "Vilm-116" or "Vilm-117".
https://www.inautia.de/boot-57117090...667694557.html
The last, newest model is probably the "Vilm-115":
https://www.yacht.de/yachten_jollen/...-nur-ein-rumpf


But be prepared for "endless" waiting times ... if you can get one at all.


Greeting from the isle of Ruegen,


Claus

[DMF Sailing]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

It’s entirely wrong to transfer one boats experience to another of a different type

.

I almost agree with this... except in one sense. In fact, the reason someone is looking at a Sirius at all is that it checks boxes that the boats they've sailed do not. And thanks to Torsten's excellent and detailed presentation, it's a bit of a shiny object. His whole pitch is that he has refined the art of cruiser design to fix everything missing from the boats you've sailed...

I'm a serial boat shopaholic who has sailed a couple dozen different kinds of cruisers, and the reason I was daydreaming about Sirius is that it appeared to check off absolutely everything I'd want in a coastal cruiser in a chilly climate with shallow harbors and frequent choppy, windy, annoyingly nasty near-gale conditions (with the odd nor'easter) but not necessarily ocean-crossing, Bass Strait-level).

I guess I wish I knew more about the OP's experience. Have they sailed on bluewater boats or are they doing that I-have-a-dream-thing longtimers here are always sometimes grumpling about? I love Torsten's presentation on the Sirius but while he says "blue water," we never see the boat in anything but protected waters. I can see that Sirius boats are moderate displacement, moderately stiff, likely to be good for the conditions I sail in, with lots of storage and tankage (and those windows don't open and have bullet-proof glass, whatever that means).

But how do they handle a gale? You won't know until you see who's sailing it, and what they intend to do with it, and how many gales they've handled.

Or hear from someone like Boatman if he's delivered one from Oporto to Wales or something.

PS: The first thing I'd do if I bought one of those would be to remove that self-tacking jib on a car. Those are fun until it's time to take one in in messy conditions.

PPS: There are Sirius DS threads on here, and a couple of people who've owned them. I'd love to hear from them here.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

. . . The pudding proof remains. Ordinary AWB are crossing oceans, the vast majority make it without issue. . . .

Of course! A typical trade winds crossing is anyway hardly challenging compared to coastal sailing in tough areas like English Channel, North Sea. You can do almost anything in an AWB. You might just have less of a margin of error here or there. The concept that you must have a certain type of boat, with a certain type of hull, keel, rudder, or whatever, in order to do "blue water" sailing is a fundamentally arm chair concept. It's my impression that most people with strong views along those lines have never been out of sight of land.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Of course! A typical trade winds crossing is anyway hardly challenging compared to coastal sailing in tough areas like English Channel, North Sea. You can do almost anything in an AWB. You might just have less of a margin of error here or there. The concept that you must have a certain type of boat, with a certain type of hull, keel, rudder, or whatever, in order to do "blue water" sailing is a fundamentally arm chair concept. It's my impression that most people with strong views along those lines have never been out of sight of land.

I whole heartedly agree , by far my most challenging deliveries took place off Atlantic coasts. . The armchair comment is spot on

Ps. AWBs are pounding ! Around the European Atlantic coasts too.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by DMF Sailing

I almost agree with this... except in one sense. In fact, the reason someone is looking at a Sirius at all is that it checks boxes that the boats they've sailed do not. And thanks to Torsten's excellent and detailed presentation, it's a bit of a shiny object. His whole pitch is that he has refined the art of cruiser design to fix everything missing from the boats you've sailed...



I'm a serial boat shopaholic who has sailed a couple dozen different kinds of cruisers, and the reason I was daydreaming about Sirius is that it appeared to check off absolutely everything I'd want in a coastal cruiser in a chilly climate with shallow harbors and frequent choppy, windy, annoyingly nasty near-gale conditions (with the odd nor'easter) but not necessarily ocean-crossing, Bass Strait-level).



I guess I wish I knew more about the OP's experience. Have they sailed on bluewater boats or are they doing that I-have-a-dream-thing longtimers here are always sometimes grumpling about? I love Torsten's presentation on the Sirius but while he says "blue water," we never see the boat in anything but protected waters. I can see that Sirius boats are moderate displacement, moderately stiff, likely to be good for the conditions I sail in, with lots of storage and tankage (and those windows don't open and have bullet-proof glass, whatever that means).



But how do they handle a gale? You won't know until you see who's sailing it, and what they intend to do with it, and how many gales they've handled.



Or hear from someone like Boatman if he's delivered one from Oporto to Wales or something.



PS: The first thing I'd do if I bought one of those would be to remove that self-tacking jib on a car. Those are fun until it's time to take one in in messy conditions.



PPS: There are Sirius DS threads on here, and a couple of people who've owned them. I'd love to hear from them here.

Sure sure. I’ve owned fancy high end cars , today I’m retired I own a fiat diesel van. It’s a great feeling having a car that cost half of the cost of my primary winch. “ watch that pot hole” , bang , “ shrugs shoulder “

Personally with that type of budget I’d go semi custom to full custom aluminium , or just kit out a plastic 55 footer with all the toys.

There a nice Sirius 38 two boats down from me.

[stevead]

I'm obviously very ignorant, had never heard of Sirius yachts until I read this thread.

However on looking at the Sirius web site, besides the picture of a pretty yacht with large windows in the hull amidships, what struck me the most was a picture of a lovely teak deck, with someone chiseling the teak plugs off.

In this day & age, no excuse for not vacuum bagging the deck and eliminating all those screws that could potentially leak water into presumably a balsa cored deck.

On any yacht, you can always find faults.