German Made Sailboats with Raised Deck Saloon Designed for Long Distance Cruising

[goboatingnow]

Certainly if you sail in the med summers or the tropics , you spend much of your time stoping the sun getting in. I don’t think a DS is much use here.

Secondly in warm climatic you spend all the time in the cockpit.

Sure in cold climates a DS might be useful but who in their right mind sails in cold and wet.

[Junk Viking]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Certainly if you sail in the med summers or the tropics , you spend much of your time stoping the sun getting in. I don’t think a DS is much use here.

Secondly in warm climatic you spend all the time in the cockpit.

Sure in cold climates a DS might be useful but who in their right mind sails in cold and wet.

I'm a thermal engineer, with 2 years sailing in the south Carribean and 2 across the med and down to the Canaries. My boat is in the south of Spain.

Badly designed boats will either fry and/or freeze you dependent on climate.
Well designed boats incl. DS, will give you a pleasant inside climate where ever.

My alu can boat is quite comfy in the Spanish heat, as it has 60mm insulation and sufficient ventilation.
It's just a little Reinke S10 (34'), but has none of the disadvantages mentioned in this thread. Not structure, nor climate.

I sit in the cockpit if I want to, not because I have to.
Not to keep watch, not to stay comfy.

[Joh.Ghurt]

Originally Posted by Junk Viking

My alu can boat is quite comfy in the Spanish heat, as it has 60mm insulation and sufficient ventilation.

Same for my aluminium boat. This year in the highest heat on the Costa del Sol, it was more comfortable sleeping in the cabin than in the cockpit - without AC unit on the boat. Good insulation and good ventilation make a tremendous difference.

[Na Mara]

My Regina pilothouse is also relatively cool in the sun despite teak decks and big windows.

I have a white canvas cover for the forward sloping windows and there is a substantial lip over the side windows.

There is loads of ventilation from deck hatches, companion way, dorades, opening hull ports and two opening deck saloon windows. The latter two make a huge difference. Particularly the hull ports which funnel any breeze off the water into the boat.

Finally the hull and deck are balsa cored and nearly 2 inches thick.

My experience is that with sufficient ventilation, insulation and shading a pilothouse is a great boat for the tropics. The pilothouse roof makes a great hardtop bimini.

[Joh.Ghurt]

Originally Posted by Na Mara

My experience is that with sufficient ventilation, insulation and shading a pilothouse is a great boat for the tropics.

Don't let that the armchair-experts know about your actual experience. It might force them to revise their preconceptions and they might have accept, that the boatyards build pilothouse boats are clever enough to solve problems. Just as with the boogeyman of the windows caving in as soon as the wind picks up, the ventilation in hot areas must remain an unsolvable problem to make them feel righteous.

[fc59]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Indeed. And N.B. also that HR are pretty much unique among high end builders in partially adopting these construction methods. Contest, Discovery, Oyster, Swan, etc. don't build them that way.

Please read the link I posted above :
https://www.cossutti.it/en/portfolio-item/swan-48/
Excerpt :
"commissioned an external design studio, not only to handle the structural and engineering part, but also to lay the foundations for a new production system to rationalize and reduce construction costs" ...
" lamination of the hull, deck and bottom structure — performed off-site using a mold" ...
" the pre-assembled interior modules "

By the way, Cossutti is the studio who designed the Bavarias C38, C42, C45 and C50...

[fc59]

Originally Posted by Muaddib1116

Even though HR is using structural grids that are made in separate molds, I would be shocked if they are no bonding them to the hull molds by glassing over the whole thing and tabbing it to the hull and bagging the whole process.

Prepare to be shocked :

https://fr-fr.facebook.com/hallbergr...177093/?type=3

This one is the 40C.

The only glassed places are the 3 bays around the keel, and the end of the largest floor. (all that is green). All the remaindzer is bonded.

The lamination is only on the flange of stringer and floors (and some non even full height of the flange). And there is no bagging, because you cannot be airtight on partial structures like that.

It is better than Beneteau Expedition Evans. What I think is the catastrophically issue of Beneteau circa 2003 (design date of the Beneteau 50) is that the bottom reinforcement is part of the grid, and not part of the hull. One slight plus point is that it increase the bonding area. The catastrophically minus (IMO) is that the bonding is done blindly at manufacturing time. And cannot be easily inspected during boat life. The HR (design in 2020) does not have this big minus.

I have nothing against bonding. Nowadays, you can have bonds between two laminated parts that hold better than a secondary lamination. (Laminating in situ a part on another one that is already cured). These bonds may be pricey, and may have strict manufacturing process.

[Na Mara]

Having owned a yacht from 2006 with a inner hull liner that separated after a grounding and that was never completely right again after it was readhered in situ I can categorically state that structural interior hull liners are not for me. Moulded accommodation structures are fine, but bonded structural liners are bad news. You ground a boat with one of those and it will almost certainly separate aft of the keel and may very well crack or deform at the same time. You will then need to strip out the entire accommodation to rebond the damn thing in place and it is unlikely that it will ever be as well seated as it was originally. From that point on you are sailing a boat that is structurally compromised. Never again!

[rotrax]

After reading this thread I concur with the 360 lookout. Our boat gives this in spades, plus being a Motorsailer it is significantly higher than many DS offerings, increasing visibility when alongside or in a Marina.

First Mate and I will never go back to an aft cockpit yacht and have every confidence in our Island Packets build quality. Even the huge pilothouse sliding windows.
One SP Cruiser owner did most of the NW Passage in, IIRC, 2012,
He was ex British armed forces and was used to obeying orders. Others on the same route at the same time disregarded Coastguard instruction and got through, he obeyed and turned back.
It is clear the boat was up to the job in a wild and dangerous place.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Joh.Ghurt

Same for my aluminium boat. This year in the highest heat on the Costa del Sol, it was more comfortable sleeping in the cabin than in the cockpit - without AC unit on the boat. Good insulation and good ventilation make a tremendous difference.

Well my Bav 36 was quite manageable in 40 degree C heat this summer. Sunshade systems and good ventilation meant sleeping was fine without a sign of AC. I sleep forward and a sunscreen over the front of the boat makes a huge difference.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Na Mara

Having owned a yacht from 2006 with a inner hull liner that separated after a grounding and that was never completely right again after it was readhered in situ I can categorically state that structural interior hull liners are not for me. Moulded accommodation structures are fine, but bonded structural liners are bad news. You ground a boat with one of those and it will almost certainly separate aft of the keel and may very well crack or deform at the same time. You will then need to strip out the entire accommodation to rebond the damn thing in place and it is unlikely that it will ever be as well seated as it was originally. From that point on you are sailing a boat that is structurally compromised. Never again!

I own a Bav36 from 2004. No liner is used on the hull ( a deck liner is used ) the hull is bonded directly to top hat stringers running across the width of the hull. It’s not all high end boats. !!

The bonded liner is a French oriented concept but more and more builders are deploying forms of it.

[Auklet]

Originally Posted by LittleWing77

Insisting on bluewater boats, meant for offshore sailing and then choosing a brand with large windows is contradictory.

Large windows are specifically *not* safe for offshore sailing.

Folks here may have read Tougias’ book [I]Overboard![I] which details the tragic voyage of Almesian, a Harden 45 ketch, caught in a major storm enroute to Bermuda from New England. The boat was severely damaged, a couple of crew including the skipper were swept overboard. The memorable part from my reading was that the large windows forward on the Harden 45 were stove in from waves crashing onto the foredeck. After reading it, I concluded that I would not be interested in a “bluewater yacht” with large windows such as those. (I no longer have the book here to confirm the details.)

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Auklet

Folks here may have read Tougias’ book [I]Overboard![I] which details the tragic voyage of Almesian, a Harden 45 ketch, caught in a major storm enroute to Bermuda from New England. The boat was severely damaged, a couple of crew including the skipper were swept overboard. The memorable part from my reading was that the large windows forward on the Harden 45 were stove in from waves crashing onto the foredeck. After reading it, I concluded that I would not be interested in a “bluewater yacht” with large windows such as those. (I no longer have the book here to confirm the details.)

Did you read about the case of Cheeky Rafiki, which sank in the Atlantic when the keel fell off? See: https://wavetrain.net/2014/05/26/che...n-post-mortem/ Several people were killed.



Would you conclude from that that you would not be interested in a "bluewater yacht" with a keel?

[250224]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Would you conclude from that that you would not be interested in a "bluewater yacht" with a keel?

Completely agree.

Some posts are so incredibly ignorant. A very sad sinking, a big window, a new law in NZ and all windows are bad. Don't think twice, damn windows. I'm sorry, that can't be it, can it?

Here what Sirius said: https://www.sirius-yachts.com/how-st...-hull-windows/. It was mentioned before: these windows are stronger than the hull.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by blu3534

Completely agree.

Some posts are so incredibly ignorant. A very sad sinking, a big window, a new law in NZ and all windows are bad. Don't think twice, damn windows. I'm sorry, that can't be it, can it?

Here what Sirius said: https://www.sirius-yachts.com/how-st...-hull-windows/. It was mentioned before: these windows are stronger than the hull.

Sirius is a really beautiful yacht. Built like a brick outhouse. I think this takes us back to the OP's question? I would take one of those Sirius yachts anywhere.


And as i mentioned upthread, I've tested the DS windows of my own boat underneath a breaking 10m wave in the North Sea, which struck the doghouse directly with enough force to cause a full knockdown.


Not a drop of water got past those "big" windows. They are as strong as the hull.


Like with keels, it's all a question of how they are engineered and how they are built.