Full keel vs fin keel for offshore?

[Tidjian]

Originally Posted by newhaul

The op hasn't come on for a while but here is a good boat that I found on craigslist here
https://bellingham.craigslist.org/bo...375323403.html

That is a nice boat.

My biggest hangup is finding a boat within distance to me. Alternatively I could purchase one on the west coast and save myself a very long tow. The downside to that is minimal time actually working with and being able to fix or customize her as I want. I'm hoping to find something I can bring to Ontario where I can drop her in the water in early May. That will let me run with her for a while and see what she might need.

If I were to fly out west to buy one she would likely be sitting there a fair portion of the time. It's kind of a catch 22. One is convenient but will require a lengthy, costly and risky tow across country. The other is inconvenient but may be easier in the long run. I could fly out there for a month, maybe two prior to any voyage and sail the harbour and do my work out there I suppose. But that will all depend on a number of factors. My other concern is flights to and from Vancouver are not cheap. Flying out there would have to almost be a sure thing it's the boat I want with a pre-negotiated price. Again paying for a survey is costly and not something I can just throw at a boat on a whim it might be good.

The other issue is timing. Luckily it's winter so I have a couple months before boats will start moving. Gives me time to shop around. I'm not sure what requirements in the U.S. are for purchasing a boat. Here in Canada we don't pay taxes I believe on registering a boat. At least I didn't. The trailer was taxed but boat registration was free. So maybe I can look into that and that will expand my options immensely as there are a fair amount of boats in Michigan to Ohio.

Lastly there is a Vega 27 in Quebec but it's listed at $10.5k. A little out of my budget but she looks impeccable. Whether the owner speaks English is one thing but the driving distance and tow on top of the price is another. I'm also not sure if she is trailered since most of the ad is in French. If not I would need to figure out if my custom trailer for my 23 could tow a 27 and if she is rated for that kind of weight on a tandem axle. Might need upgraded tires or supports.

[Tidjian]

I'm seeing a lot of talk about roll overs and knock downs. With the sails in a 3rd or 4th reef and the storm jib up what's the likelihood of the mast snapping in a roll over?

I've been reading your stories about being inverted. I would think a shallow beam of 8-8.5' with a heavy fin keel would make staying inverted very unlikely. Maybe if you had a 9.6' beam like the Aloha 28 you could have some issues flipping back over? As for when you do flip back over I'm assuming your first priority should be to crank up your electric bilge and start working your manual to get any water out.

But that begs me to ask should you be hiding in the cabin in bad weather or manning the helm? I'm not familiar with auto pilots and I've read an Aries system can run well up to 50k winds. So I'm not sure if you just, drop your sea anchor and throw your storm jib up then toss a a couple reefs in your main, before retreating inside the cabin. Or should you do all of the above and stay at the helm, make sure your jackline is tight and your ******* is puckered and sail through. Again I'm not very familiar with ocean weather but don't waves generally have a pattern of direction? The goal being to steer into them and not let them side swipe you to begin with? If I'm wrong on any of these cues please tolerate me as I'm unfamiliar with squalls and storms at sea.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Tidjian

But that begs me to ask should you be hiding in the cabin in bad weather or manning the helm? .

No one can answer that except the guy on the scene.

Also, how long can you last on the helm? Days ? Hours,

Are waves breaking over the stern if you are running?

Does your boat heave too well in the conditions

[kmacdonald]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Real life story: some years ago, our friends Doug and Nancy M. were delivering a Valiant 40 from NZ back to the states. A couple of days out, between NZ and the Kermadecs the wx got pretty nasty. They hove the boat to, with a backed storm jib and deeply reefed main and were lying pretty quietly with the boat buttoned up and them below decks. They heard an abnormally loud wave approaching, and it apparently struck them more or less on the beam. The boat promptly inverted... and stayed there... long enough that they were stuffing pillows into the Dorades, stemming the rapid inrush of water. Nancy had suffered a severe facial injury and was bleeding copiously, and they were a bit concerned. No clock was consulted, but later Doug estimated that they were inverted for at least a minute, likely longer, and then with a loud bang the rod rigging parted, the mast collapsed and the boat rapidly came back to her feet. A fair amount of water below, but between bailing and pumping they got her dried out.

A mayday was issued and by good chance there was a RNZN frigate fairly nearby, and they came to the scene. Took Nancy off right away and got her first to their sick bay and then heloed back to a hospital in NZ where a plastic surgeon put her back together. Meanwhile the Kiwis (bless them) didn't insist that Doug abandon the vessel as some rescue folks do. Rather they sent a diver to help untangle the mess of rod, sails and mast, then sent a lot of diesel in jugs, and finally "loaned" him a volunteer crewman, and together they got the boat back to NZ.

So, it seems that all boats that invert do not sink, and that given the right sea conditions even boats considered quite seaworthy can come agley. A cool head and very experienced sailors coupled with fortuitous location of a naval vessel turned a disaster into a survivable event. The boat eventually was repaired and IIRC returned successfully to the USA.

Nancy, who sadly passed away last year, bore only minor scarring. Had it not been for the prompt attention from the Kiwi doctors, the results would likely have been disfiguring, so again, bless the Kiwi navy... real seamen.

Jim

Another prime example of why heaving to is a bad strategy. Plenty of more examples from the '79 fastnet.

You never hear about the sinkings due to a roll because no one is left alive to tell about it--------not that first had account can be relied on anyway. Eye witnesses are often the worst source of factual events.

[kmacdonald]

Originally Posted by Tidjian

So I'm not sure if you just, drop your sea anchor and throw your storm jib up then toss a a couple reefs in your main, before retreating inside the cabin.

That should do it!

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by Tidjian

I'm worried I'm going to sail dead into a huge rock or coral reef under water and the boat will come to a dead stop and tear the keel right off.

This is an aside, but you may not be aware that in tropical waters you can 'read' the depth quite accurately (during daylight, and surprisingly sometimes even by good moonlight if you are really alert) by looking at the water color (darker blue = deeper).

Originally Posted by Tidjian

But that begs me to ask should you be hiding in the cabin in bad weather or manning the helm?

There are some storm tactics which are mostly 'passive' (a para-anchor use is one of these) and other tactics which are more 'active' (fast running is one of these). These are used in different situations. However, in both cases you need to be alert and monitor the situation (and not just huddle/hide below) because the storm and/or boat conditions can change requiring you to respond.

So I'm not sure if you just, drop your sea anchor and throw your storm jib up then toss a a couple reefs in your main, before retreating inside the cabin.

there are two primary techniques for using a sea anchor,
and neither of them is that. The most common is to go bare poles (no sails at all) and deploy the para-anchor over the bow. A bit less common technique, used by some small boats (in the size you are looking at) was developed by the Pardey's, which sets the para-anchor on a bridle so it is like 45 degrees off the bow and then the small/deeply reefed sails (often just a trysail, not main or jib) set to encourage the boat to take a 'hove-to' sort of position. This second technique is a bit tricky in practice and somewhat controversial - but does work well if all the details are done correctly.

Drogues have become rather more popular than para-anchors (but both have their uses). With a drogue, you either run bare poles, or just a small storm jib (no main or trysail).

don't waves generally have a pattern of direction? The goal being to steer into them and not let them side swipe you to begin with?

Yes, there is generally a predominate wave pattern,
but one of the factors which makes bad storms bad is often a significant secondary pattern from a different direction. This makes the boat less stable,
and causes interference between the two wave patterns which will occasionally cause a really really bad wave shape. There is a technique of sailing into these wave (called 'fore reaching') but more often people will run from them. There are situations and reasons to choose between those approaches.

Originally Posted by kmacdonald

That should do it!



Mr. K MacDonald, sorry to be blunt here, but pretty much everything you have written in your posts in this thread have been flat out dead wrong. You obviously don't have either meaningful offshore experience or knowledge. You might do the forum a favor and write your posts as questions reflecting your curiosity but lack of knowledge, rather than as flat incorrect statements.

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by kmacdonald

Another prime example of why heaving to is a bad strategy. Plenty of more examples from the '79 fastnet.

You never hear about the sinkings due to a roll because no one is left alive to tell about it--------not that first had account can be relied on anyway. Eye witnesses are often the worst source of factual events.

Not sure if you have ever crossed an ocean but you seem very opinionated Taking info from the 79 Fastnet is a bit flawed, not entirely but a bit because IOR boats that favored wide beam and higher ballast and other quirky design features are no longer built primarily because of what was learned during that race.
There is nothing wrong with heaving to, every offshore sailor should know exactly how his/her boat reacts when hove to and should be able to set up his boat with little to no thought. When the seas are breaking it's better to run off down wind and steer around the larger seas, if you are short handed then a passive system should be deployed, we carry a series drogue if it were to get really hairy.
The biggest difference between today and 1979 is the weather forecasting availability to offshore cruisers, actually it's rare for most cruisers to get into sustained winds of over 30 knots on a trade wind circumnavigation.
As far As your desire to make up statistics about boats rolling and sinking and never being heard of.....well it's such a small number that it's hardly worth discussing. It has happened and it will continue to happen but it's rare and there are hundreds of things that will bring you to grief way before you have to worry about that.

[N1EYO]

I’ve been lurking on this post. Lots of good info. I too, thank everyone.

My two cents, albeit tardy, is the personal ratio of desired performance to available budget.

K-Mac, have you read any of “this unknown author’s” stuff. My opinion is he touches on that very ratio. Getting the most (safe) boat for the buck.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00638SJII..._.9NmAb3H595HC

Dave
(November one, Eat yer onions)

[kmacdonald]

All the talk of rolling boats is really foolish. Only a fool would find themselves in conditions capable of that. The weather reporting is so good that there is NO chance of being blindsided by a hurricane or storm for that matter.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by kmacdonald

Another prime example of why heaving to is a bad strategy. Plenty of more examples from the '79 fastnet.

That was a fast moving storm coming through during the 79 Fastnet Race.

You have to consider if you were in bad weather for days on end. At some point unless you had lots of crew members, you'd most likely have to heave too. (due to exhaustion)

[kmacdonald]

For anyone interested in good reading on storm tactics I would suggest Dashew and Jordan. https://www.setsail.com/free-books/

[roland stockham]

I was thinking about the original question. Quite a few people here ask for advice/opinions about boats suitable for cruising. If you're asking those questions it probably reflects a concern about your level of experience. Best advice I can give is to volunteer to crew on an offshore delivery, ideally something like the Baha Bash. After that you will probably have a much better idea of what matters for you in offshore sailing rather than relying on the opinions of others.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by kmacdonald

All the talk of rolling boats is really foolish. Only a fool would find themselves in conditions capable of that. The weather reporting is so good that there is NO chance of being blindsided by a hurricane or storm for that matter.

The same Contessa 32 (Accent) that was knocked down several times during the Fastnet 79 race but still completed the race was rolled completely at a later date and survived it rig intact

[Suijin]

Originally Posted by Tidjian

I'm seeing a lot of talk about roll overs and knock downs. With the sails in a 3rd or 4th reef and the storm jib up what's the likelihood of the mast snapping in a roll over?

Just some clarification. Just because you're seeing a lot of talk about roll overs and knock downs does not mean they are a common occurrence. And they are distinctly different events that happen in different circumstances.

A knock down is usually caused by a "freak" wind gust, such as in a squall, where the boat is literally knocked over by the force on it's sails. In the vast majority of cases it's not a catastrophic event, particularly if the boat is well prepared. Water in the cockpit and probably a mess down below, but the boat recovers. I've been in knockdowns during races and two in my own boat and while it's certainly an anxiety producing experience it's not a major threat to the boat...unless your rigging fails, which it should not if well maintained.

A roll over is a whole different story. It almost certainly the result of sea state, of a wave catching the boat broadside in a trough or simply a big enough breaking wave to roll the boat. If you're managing the boat well it's not going to happen except in the most dire of circumstances...think Force 9 and up, or a freak wave.

Jim mentioned a Valiant that rolled. You can seal up a Valiant pretty tight so that the only ingress is going to be around the cockpit locker gaskets, which if locked closed should not let in more than a few gallons. The couple in question did not remove the dorade vent cowls and put the deck plates in when entering heavy weather, which they should have, perhaps because they were delivering the boat and did not know where they were stowed. Pretty much any ocean-going boat can be prepped/modified to be similarly tight, within reason.

And to put it in perspective, there are about 3-400 Valiants roaming the planet. They have been a favored choice for circumnavigation and long distance voyaging for 40 years. I think I've heard of two being rolled. That's how uncommon rollovers are general if you're exercising good judgment in terms of weather and seamanship.

Originally Posted by Tidjian

I've been reading your stories about being inverted. I would think a shallow beam of 8-8.5' with a heavy fin keel would make staying inverted very unlikely. Maybe if you had a 9.6' beam like the Aloha 28 you could have some issues flipping back over? As for when you do flip back over I'm assuming your first priority should be to crank up your electric bilge and start working your manual to get any water out.

In the sort of conditions that cause a boat to invert, once the mast breaks the boat is going to right itself eventually simply because of the sea state. As for what's your priority afterwards, I don't think that's worth putting together a to-do list for. It's straightforward and situational: stay calm, assess the situation, and proceed accordingly.

Originally Posted by Tidjian

But that begs me to ask should you be hiding in the cabin in bad weather or manning the helm? I'm not familiar with auto pilots and I've read an Aries system can run well up to 50k winds. So I'm not sure if you just, drop your sea anchor and throw your storm jib up then toss a a couple reefs in your main, before retreating inside the cabin. Or should you do all of the above and stay at the helm, make sure your jackline is tight and your ******* is puckered and sail through. Again I'm not very familiar with ocean weather but don't waves generally have a pattern of direction? The goal being to steer into them and not let them side swipe you to begin with? If I'm wrong on any of these cues please tolerate me as I'm unfamiliar with squalls and storms at sea.

Evans reply sums it up but I'll add that again, it's situational. Yes, a wind vane can effectively steer a boat running bare poles downwind in 50 knots, and usually better than a human can, depending on the boat. Been there and done that. It's particularly handy when it's pitch black out, you can't even see the waves, and steering by staring at your wind instruments is absolutely exhausting.

I'll also add that offshore in bad conditions, 95% of the time your concern is the sea state and not the actual wind force itself. Your tactics need to be directed at managing the boat and the crew (fatigue, etc) in the waves and the expected waves and sea. Sometimes it's heaving to, sometimes it's running bare poles, sometimes it's running bare poles with a drogue, etc. There are a few excellent books on the subject that would give you far better and better organized information than what you're going to get here on this forum.

Honestly, you'd be best served by going out and getting some experience. I say this over and over again here to posters who are too immersed in theoretical preparation. Experience is the best teacher, by a long long mile. Volunteer as crew on a long passage with an experienced skipper. You'll learn more in those two weeks or so than you will in years of reading. And it will only cost you plane fare there and back, usually. Money well spent.

A good choice would be either the Caribbean 1500 or the Salty Dawg Rally for a couple of reasons. First, they provide a few seminars before leaving...safety and weather at least, which you could attend as crew. Second, that trip at that time of year usually encounters varied weather conditions, usually with a bit of heavy weather or at least some squalls at night thrown in. Third, the destination is warm, the parties are fun, and the people are generally experienced and nice. And boats in these events are always looking for crew. You'd have no problem catching a ride.

[dcstrng]

Originally Posted by N1EYO

I’ve been lurking on this post. Lots of good info. I too, thank everyone.

Ditto – as an accomplished lurker, the information here is invaluable – admittedly many have strayed away from the smaller boats that were the original focus, but the depth of knowledge and food for thought in some of the more thoughtful posts borders on priceless (for this armchair/bathtub sailor).