Ferro Cement Hulls ?

[StoneAge]

First, I find it interesting that no one ever mentions the junk fiberglass that came out of factories like Beneteau, Whitby, Cheoy Lee and other fiberglass boats in the late 70's and early 80's. These boats were riddled with blisters only a few years after launching, then, with Beneteau anyway, they abandoned their customers and left them to rot. There were Blistered beneteaus 3 years old floating right below the Beneteau dealer here in Vancouver with great big LEMON signs on them. The local dealer wanted to make it right but didn't have the backing from the parent company so he couldn't.

Why? because the cost of repair and keeping their customers happy was too high. Something about paying dividends to their shareholders. Profits before safety. That's big business for ya.

Yup - fiberglass is infallible - Right. There's a bridge in Brooklyn that's for sale too.

Truthfully I wouldn't go near a Beneteau today, just for that reason alone.. Their reputation for customer service precedes them.. What is going to happen when there is another major problem? Of course, Beneteaus are mainly Tupperware tubs that go into charter work anyway. They sail fairly well but are production boats. A lot of folks like them - I don't. I'd buy my production Tupperware from Hunter or Catalina (neither had the same problems). Pacific Seacraft if I was going offshore. After all, when you get blisters on your boat it is a sign of BAD LAYUP and not enough resin used. What is going to happen to these glass tubs now that petro chemicals are going through the roof cost wise? Start building crappy boats again?

Wait - I AM going offshore and I have a Ferro boat. Guess I wouldn't buy glass after all.. Too much money for the possibility of delamination and blistering. (the formulas are better today, but remember that they are no longer making boats extra strong - only just strong enough. (some exceptions but not at a mass production yard - more than 50 boats a year)

Whitby, is out of business. Beneteau survived because they are a large manufacturer and because they were the instigators of The Moorings owner/charter fleet. I'm sure there are other fiberglass names that had the same challenges.. I see all kinds of vessels like this with chicken pox all over their hulls. (I am a surveyor as well) Repairable at about $1,000 - $1,500 a foot (if done properly) but most of the time the boat is not worth a proper repair so the blisters get popped, kind of dried out then filled. The problem is left to get worse.

When osmotic blistering covers more than 1/4 -1/3'rd of your hull, the structure of the fiberglass is at risk as there may not be enough resin left there to hold it together. And a proper repair could take 6-8 months depending on where you are. So there are many fiberglass pieces of junk out there too. And wood ones and steel ones.

The unfortunate thing is that these chicken poxxed boats are not necessarily sent to the graveyard where they belong and are fully insurable. Why? Because they are fiberglass. The insurance industry tends to steer us toward what they want to see used the most out there.. That seems to be petrochemical based products. If it's made out of oil, then we'll insure it. If it's not, then get out of here.

Frankly, I'm sick of it. Insurance is what? Nothing more than buying financial responsibility on a 'just in case' something happens basis. According to common law, Insurance is unlawful. According to Statutory law you must have it. The difference between the two is faith based and not a topic to get into here, but the long and short is in order to maintain our Ferro boats properly, we must have some way of proving we have financial responsibility to take care of any damage we cause, knowingly or not. Be it cash in the bank (Lawful insurance) or a piece of paper that states any losses will be covered by the name at the top - or third party insurance (legal, but unlawful). Never mind that there's a 50/50 chance (or worse for claims over 150k) that any large damages will get covered.

Whatever the game is and however the rules are made up, they are still the rules. So how do we make it so we can adhere to the rules without having to talk to these insurance companies that don't realize what a deal they are getting when it comes to a good ferro boat. Especially when there is a knowledgeable skipper that knows their boat and what they are doing (most important piece of safety equipment aboard).

There's a yard here on the island that requires you have insurance to cover ANY losses, including the ones that are their fault. In other words, if they pick your boat up and the strap breaks, YOU are responsible, not them. Makes me wonder how much insurance this yard has if they require YOU to cover all the damages THEY do to YOUR boat. And the rule is you cannot touch your vessel from the time the straps touch the hull in the water to when it is propped to their standards and the yard crew walks away. Now, if your boat falls over, it's your fault. If they drop your boat and you are in the pub next door, it's still your fault. I won't go to that yard and I lived at that marina for 3 years and know the owners well. They are good people, but also shrewd business owners that know the fine lines and how to manipulate them.. So when the yard asks for YOUR insurance - Maybe you'd better ask for theirs too.

Good owners of Ferro Boats... How about a consortium of us, starting our own Private Assurance club that will cover liabilities? Maybe even extend to damage losses as well.. The Puget Sound Agricultural Society Model is what I am talking about.. We set up a membership co-op that has a fee to join and maintain membership. Then all losses and claims through the year get divided amongst the members and costs are shared. with a yearly bill. This concept not only covers the insurance regulations, but also is a legal and lawful form of financial protection.

I know there are special regulations and such for starting and 'insurance" company, but this is not an insurance company.. This is a private membership that consolidates their resources to look after the group as a whole. still regulations to follow, but no where near as many.

I'd be willing to look into further and maybe even set up an organization such as this so that we Ferro owners with good boats and seamanship skills can have some peace of mind when heading to a yard. Peace of mind when you are sailing is up to your knowledge and skills. I know of a couple organizations that will cover your vessel offshore, but it better not be less than 3 years old and you'd better have 25,000 offshore miles under your belt. AND it is VERY expensive - even for fiberglass.

My projections are that membership dues would be approx $1,500 per year. This would be use to handle administration (10%) and the rest would be placed in high return businesses so we can build a pooling kitty. The bills get added up in a timely fashion (maybe once a month) and divided by the number of members. Each will get a statement of status every period showing the claims made for the previous period and the amount owing, if any.

No, it's not insurance, but an assurance that your liabilities will be covered by the group as a whole. There is a difference in legalities and semantics. Making everyone's mishaps a bit easier to take. Because we all know that stuff happens.

PM me if you are interested in such a plan with your ideas and suggestions for coverage etc.. This would be a group thing and the members will always have a say in the workings and what can be feasibly covered. If this works out we could even attract those other style of boat owners.. as long as their mindset is similar ;-) and their boats are well built. :-).

StoneAge.

The best hing about this type of program is it can really expand to additional benefits for the members. We all need boat goodies and when there are more boats buying goodies, prices drop. When prices drop, we tend to buy more safety goodies. When we buy more things that make our boats safer, less stuff happens and so on...

I look forward to hearing from each and every Ferro owner on this board. It's time for this insanity to stop.

Cheers
StoneAge.

[Liam Wald]

StoneAge,
Lots of good points made.
If one were looking for a cement boat, who made really good ones? Is anyone making them at this time?

[StoneAge]

There are a fw still being built in europe. I know of one mega yacht being built Italy out of ferro. 125 feet.

As far as being a good one - it is a boat by boat basis.. Usually if it is professionally constructed it is a good one. There were several yards that did great jobs on them all around the world. However, a Sampson built boat may not always be a good one - but only because John sold franchises with the plans.. So for an extra 125 bucks you could be the owner of a Sampson Marine franchise and state that your boat was built by Sampson Marine. But you were supposed to follow Johns instructions to the letter. Most did, but some didn't. Bask yard jobs etc.. You can usually tell those with close inspection if not just by the look of the hull on theoutside.. Cracked and crazed like alligator skin.(I've seen them) .. next boat....:-)


One of the best way's to tell is the inside if the hull.. Where it's bare.. Is it dry? Is there rust? Not necessarily bad, but worthy of a closer look. If you can get an ultrasound on the hull that is great. Well, if it is found to be sound. Not many folks have the equipment to perform this.

That is where folks get their false sense of security.. They believe that if a boat was made at a factory in a mold and looks good it's a good quality boat. They don't investigate further.

How is your Beneteau for blisters? Hope you got one of the good ones or one repaired properly. They are great sailing boats.. Can even make decent offshore cruisers. I know a few folks that have gone around in one.

[Liam Wald]

Thanks for the reply.
My Beneteau was built in 2003. No blisters at all (at least not yet). It is my fourth boat in 35 years ( two Cals and a Mason before).
I like the boat quite a lot. I've put about 12,000 miles under the keel in six years and no issues.
All the best, Liam.

[StoneAge]

Glad to hear that Liam. 2003 you ought to have zero challenges with blisters. And your hull is only cored to the waterline so there shouldn't be any issues there. They have cleaned up their act since the fiasco of the 80's. And many have forgotten.

I'm not a big fan of the design. I'm classic cruiser style. Deep and heavy. Stone Age is 60' LOA (LOD),48' LWL 14.5 wide, 8'deep and and 30.25 tons. We'll do 10 knots comfortably but don't get in our way. :-). So far we have a pittance of miles on her, (getting up to about 1500) but she's never been anywhere yet. That starts this year.

Maybe see ya out there.

Cheers.
Stone Age.

[Carouse]

this is all very interesting stuff,good to be in the company of so many like minded friends.Ive been away from the pu'ter for a while and would be interested in hearing comments on antifoul on ferro hulls.Every year the problem seems to get worse ,I hauled out last august,same old prosses,water blast,quick scrape,day and a half on the sander fairing out the patches of fallen antifoul followed a scrub with sugar soap and a going over with acatone and clean rags before applying under coat and antifoul.
Diving under the boat 7 months later,patches of A/F falling off already...s**t~.I know other ferros with the same problem but they have no answers.Any one out there got the solution? As for insurance try www.EdwardWilliam.com Ive been with them over a year now
Cheers CAROUSE

[isy43]

Hi Carouse.
I'm looking at selling my 37ft catamaran & moving up to a ferro 48 ft ketch, so Ive been investigating a few things as in repurchase information.
A/ I contacted Simon Henderson from Coppershield in Perth (coppershield@westnet.com.au) only to find he also has a large ferro yacht & it's anti-fouled with Coppershield & has been for a number of years. He recently quoted me $3555.00 for enough material to anti-foul a 48 footer that you can expect a ten year life out of , antifoul that is, thats for 2 epoxy base coats then 3 copper epoxy coats.
As yet i haven't contacted Edward William for a quote but have had an e-mail from his broker in Victoria.What does your insurance cost you ?
I'm looking to buy this ferro ketch soon i hope , looking forward to it actually & am looking to find a surveyor who's knowledgeable about ferro boats , so if you know of one I'd be glad to make contact with them.
Kind Regards, Isabell
Birkdale in OZ
isy43@hotmail.com

[Carouse]

Hi Isy,great looking ketch, good luck with the purchace.Insurance
has gone up this year by $200.00 making it about $850.00 for my 32 footer,hopefully it won't happen again [ha ha] .I know a shipwright originally from NZ, he is a wealth of imformation on building and repairing F/C boats although he is not a surveyor he might be able to look at it for you.
Cheers
CAROUSE

[isy43]

Hi Carouse..... so that insurance would be 3rd party property or comprehensive insurance ?
Isabell

[Carouse]

That would be comprehensive Isy,
cheers
CAROUSE
Email mcfbuild@hotmail.com

[simonEdwards]

I am just getting ready to paint the hull on my recently acquired Endurance 40.
The majority of the existing paint is fairly decent but there are some shrikage cracks in the paint on the port side. Any guidance for prep work. Strip the entire boat? Type of paint system to use?

[Borealis]

Carousel

your question regarding antifouling over ferro is worth a comment. your peeling problem is most unfortunate and quite frusterating. At this time my boat is hauled and I am scraping my old antifouling off becaseu it is peeling. But my peeling didn't show until I hauled her and it started drying.

The problem on my boat was the prep. That being said, Prep is the problem on all paint peeling jobs. Paint is cohesive to itself unless there is a contaminate in the paint to block the cohesion, cohesion will also be compromised if the paint build is too thick and as it dries the shrinkage is stronger than the cohesion (cracks). Generally cohesion problems are due to application error or contamination of the material applied.

Adhesion, however, is a problem associated with inadequate prep of the foundation (ie substrate, primer, old topcoat). Adhesion is the characteristic of bonding to something else (tape to paper). Peeling is an adhesion problem and you need to look at how you prepped the foundation. If the cement is prepped properly and the primer coat, barrier coat, is adhering well to the cement then your problem lies with prep of the primer/barrier coat. Moisture, salts, oils, incompatible paint, not sanding are common causes of peeling.

My problem is the result of me not understanding the characteristic of a 'non-sanding' primer. I sanded the first two coats after they dried and then read the directions on the paint realizing it was a non-ablative paint (not requiring sanding), so I told my wife with a smile that we didn't need to sand our third coat, just apply our antifoul over the top. SO we did just that. Well, our inital primer coats are cohesive and adhesive excellently but on our third and final coat the antifoul has peeled. We found the final primer coat was quite glossy under the antifoul and realized that we should have sanded the final primer coat. I thoroughly understood the problem after talking with another boat owner who said this type of paint is designed for steel freighters so that pressure washing is done in place of sanding. LESSON LEARNED.

I am fixing this problem by scraping off the old antifould, sanding the underlying primer, appling a new primer layer, sanding this and applying antifoul. I have absolute confidence in the materials and procedure becasue I am staying with the basics and this is industrial shipbuilding paint. (International and Amron).

Getting back to the substrate cement. make sure it is not holding moisture anywhere. If you have pinholes in the cement surface anywhere (and they will show), hit them with a hot air gun to dry them, ream them out with a drill bit if neccesary and then fill small void with epoxy. Wipe with Acetone just prior to painting, this will take away all impurities including chlorides (salty air). Again, I did not use a yacht primer for my cement substrate, i used a 2 part 1:3 International ship primer for steel substrate. If the cement seems a little too smooth then I hit with sand paper to give it profile.

Hope this helps.

[Borealis]

StoneAge, sounds like you have given a lot of thought to an association, more info than I have even considered regarding insurance. This thread has caused me to look at the details of my insurance and see what is not covered. My insurance is not expensive but we'll see what I'm really paying for.

Also, i have been interested in creating a Ferro Cement Boat Owners Association. Not just for insurance or product benefits (thats something I hadn't considered) but for the comoradery of those who love there boats, against the opinions of mainstream yachters. We are a unique type of person to slect a cement boat and fall in love with it. Keep me posted on your progress on this, I am willing to prepare documents and marketing to start one.

I will be working in San Diego and the Persian Gulf from May though March 2011. If you plan a cruise to Prt Townsend, please send me a message. Also i am the mooring field Captain for the Port hadlock Yacht Club if you want to venture down to The Old Alcohol Plant (Nemos restaraunt) or Ajax Cafe.

Marcus

[MattDamon2927]

So, let's talk some more about getting to gether and creating something Stone Age? Do you have a plan...?

James

[icebreakingfool]

Wow what a wealth of information...I actually read through all 26 pages of that and I am convinced that a ferroboat might be the boat for me!

I was wondering if any of you know about the build of this boat:
56' Samson, (1978 or 1980), designed by Bruce Bingham and built by Rob Diepenbrock. The boats name is Genesis.

I can't seem to find any information on this boat. Any help would be much appreciated. How do I even know this was professionally built?