"evolution" of boats from about 1980 to 2000's - educate me.

[kevinnem]

Hello Everyone. I was hoping the knowledgeable member of the forum might be able to help me out.

I am looking to by a sailboat in the next few years, say , with in say 3 years ( I am 39, so still very much in the "working" part of my life). I have been sailing a little bit in the Vancouver area ( pacific NW) and loved the experience, but our 26 foot boat was simply not big enough and made pretty much every task a difficult chore. This has me looking at boats in the 40-46 foot range. I do all the research I can, online, but one aspect that I can't really evaluate very well is the change in design over the years.

One of my biggest concerns is space on board, I want to be able to stand up to put my pants on. I want to go tot the bathroom, with out the needs for yoga lessons. Me and the wife need a big bed, we both starfish at night, we normally sleep in a king.

It seems the older boats have a very different design then the newer boats. Most evident is the bow, older boats have a deep angle to them to "climb" the wave to some large degree, new boats have a bow at or near 90 (some are even "reverse"), to "cut" in to the waves, .. for a given length , I would assume the new bow has much move room inside.

Same with the rear of the boats, old boats, tend to get much narrower in the back, with transoms up in the air. Newer boats seem to sometimes get rather fat in the back, with "sugar scoops" or similier, that surly give much different interior conditions.


I would love to hear from people that might be able to speak to the changes over the years to sail boats. Maybe form the late 70's forward. Are the "newer designs" better, do they have more room, or are the older "classic" designs still basically the same. Is there a time period where boats boats seem to transition form one design philosophy to another?

Thanks for any knowledge you might impart.

[Shrew]

Originally Posted by kevinnem

Me and the wife need a big bed, we both starfish at night, we normally sleep in a king.

You're not going to tick that box. You're both going to need to re-learn your sleep postures. It is very possible, but it takes time and patience.

[NormanMartin]

Materials and fashion.

If you can find them look for the books bob perry has written about yacht design. Start the search at Sailing magazine.

More to follow
Norm

[skipmac]

First, you cannot generalize about all "modern" boats. There is a huge diversity in the designs and build of new boats. Some are very different, built along the lines of the latest racers with wave piercing bows and huge flat sterns that will surf at the drop of a hat. There are also boats built in the style of 40-50 years ago and more and everything in between.

There are older boats that are very, very roomy (like the Morgan OI41) and new boats that aren't, like a Morris, and vice versa. Bottom line, you have to look at individual boats and designs. In general I will say that there are more, beamy, roomy boats built in recent years so you would have a wider choice in brands in newer boats to get more room.

First point, unless you are 6'4" or better you should not have a problem finding a boat with standing headroom, new or old.

Regarding the bed, until you get into a really big, really expensive boat I don't know of any with a king bed. However lots of boats, especially center cockpit/aft cabin designs that have a centerline queen in the aft cabin.

[JC Reefer]

Originally Posted by kevinnem

Me and the wife need a big bed, we both starfish at night, we normally sleep in a king.

My wife and I starfish as well. PM me if you want to swap tips...

[ilenart]

Originally Posted by NormanMartin

Materials and fashion.

If you can find them look for the books bob perry has written about yacht design.

This is probably the one Norman is referring to. Great read. Bob also offers a consulting service for US $500 which I found very useful.

https://www.amazon.com/Yacht-Design-.../dp/007146557X

Ilenart

[PirateFoxy]

Originally Posted by Shrew

You're not going to tick that box. You're both going to need to re-learn your sleep postures. It is very possible, but it takes time and patience.

Or just sleep separately most of the time. Ime it’s easier to spread out on a smaller bed if you don’t have anyone to run into and can fully use the available bed.

[NormanMartin]

Ilenart, thanks. There are also some books, published by Sailing mag, I think, that collect his reviews in that magazine. Together they make a great study of yacht design and the outcome of design choices. I haven't seen those books for sale in ages. Wonder why?

[ilenart]

Originally Posted by NormanMartin

Ilenart, thanks. There are also some books, published by Sailing mag, I think, that collect his reviews in that magazine. Together they make a great study of yacht design and the outcome of design choices. I haven't seen those books for sale in ages. Wonder why?

A lot of them are available online.

http://sailingmagazine.net/by-author-984-1.html

[NormanMartin]

Regarding the OP's question about "traditional" vs "modern" designs. Some thoughts.

First, there is the materials factor. Until the advent of fiberglass, it was hard to make a yacht that had a shape that wood did like. Bending and fastening wood limits available shapes. The old timers knew about faster shapes but had a hard time building them to last. I have book from the early 1900s that makes this point.

Second, there is style/fashion. Early FG boats looked like wood boats because that what designers knew and customers liked. Yachting was more a form of camping than resort vacationing so interiors were small with lots of shared space. As customers started demanding more interior volume and privacy, yachts got beamier and the beam was carried farther aft.

Third, don't overlook the influence of yacht racing handicapping rules at "distorting" shapes and influencing design.

Having sailed many various types, I observe that contemporary wide yachts tend to have flatter bottoms and are prone to pounding offshore which is horrible. Also, the newer wide yachts are often lacking in interior hand holds which is dangerous offshore. They are, conversely, more comfortable at rest. Since cruising yachts spend the most time at rest, you can see why contemporary designs are what they are.

Raked vs vertical bows. Anything to extend the waterline since that affect interior space more than overall length.

On my profile page, I put pictures of the 48 foot Alden yawl we cruised for five years including New England to the Bahamas/Florida a couple seasons. Four kids, parents and the dog. It was designed for family cruising and accomodations for a paid hand in 1921. She was a common design in her day and would be a curiosity today.

Best regards,
Norm Martin
Cape Cod

[LLCoolDave]

A lot of cruising designs trickle down from racing. IOR and CCA racing penalized longer waterlines so designers made big overhangs so that when the boat healed over, the waterline would increase making the boat faster. Then came ULDB boats and planing hulls with wide beams. The charter market also exploded and having a wide beam with two aft cabins became very desirable. The plumb bow doesn't really give you more storage since it's where you store the anchor chain. Maybe a larger water tank. It does extend the waterline which makes the boat faster.

Sleeping starfished out you might want to consider sleeping in separate cabins. As others have noted most bunks are full to queen sized.

[MJH]

Originally Posted by kevinnem

Hello Everyone. I was hoping the knowledgeable member of the forum might be able to help me out.

I am looking to by a sailboat in the next few years, say , with in say 3 years ( I am 39, so still very much in the "working" part of my life). I have been sailing a little bit in the Vancouver area ( pacific NW) and loved the experience, but our 26 foot boat was simply not big enough and made pretty much every task a difficult chore. This has me looking at boats in the 40-46 foot range. I do all the research I can, online, but one aspect that I can't really evaluate very well is the change in design over the years.

One of my biggest concerns is space on board, I want to be able to stand up to put my pants on. I want to go tot the bathroom, with out the needs for yoga lessons. Me and the wife need a big bed, we both starfish at night, we normally sleep in a king.

It seems the older boats have a very different design then the newer boats. Most evident is the bow, older boats have a deep angle to them to "climb" the wave to some large degree, new boats have a bow at or near 90 (some are even "reverse"), to "cut" in to the waves, .. for a given length , I would assume the new bow has much move room inside.

Same with the rear of the boats, old boats, tend to get much narrower in the back, with transoms up in the air. Newer boats seem to sometimes get rather fat in the back, with "sugar scoops" or similier, that surly give much different interior conditions.


I would love to hear from people that might be able to speak to the changes over the years to sail boats. Maybe form the late 70's forward. Are the "newer designs" better, do they have more room, or are the older "classic" designs still basically the same. Is there a time period where boats boats seem to transition form one design philosophy to another?

Thanks for any knowledge you might impart.

You are trying to shortcut the process needed to find the right boat for you. All boats are different and trying to pigeonhole an entire era of boats as acceptable or not is not the correct approach.

First define how you intend to use the boat (cruise, race, etc.) and what waters you intend to use it in (inland, coastal, offshore, passage-making, Atlantic, Pacific, Gulf, worldwide) while understanding that no boat can do everything well. Then list the features that it must have followed by what would be nice to have but remember ALL BOATS ARE TRADEOFFS. Depending on how you answer those questions will determine the boat category for you. Research what is necessary/advisable for that category of boat and the areas of tradeoff, i.e. small fresh water tankage may mean carrying jugs or needing a watermaker.

The fun part of the process is the boat search; look at as many boats as you can until you get sick of it...and then look some more, you can't look at too many boats. With persistence during this last phase, the boat for you will reveal itself.

Good Luck.

~ ~ _/) ~ ~ MJH

[dadster3]

You should probably be looking for a center cockpit. The aft cabin can be very roomy. I have a friend who owns a Morgan 46. The aft cabin has at least a queen bed. It's like walking into a normal bedroom. It will also sleep at least 4 more people in the center and forward cabins.

[robert sailor]

Some of the newer boats are designed from the inside out...good example is the center cockpit hunter.....very large inside, lots of headroom and good sized beds.

The outside sorta looks like a wedding cake so you win some and lose some.

The ones designed from the outside in are really easy to spot, those are the ones that gather eyeball attention as they sail by you. The compromises were not good looks or superior handling, those came first. That's not to say you won't have a very nicely designed interior as well but its unlikely that it will be as big in volume as the first example.

If your planning on cruising local BC waters and if you are a sailing freak (means you love the sailing aspect) then you should be looking for a boat that first and foremost can sail, especially in light winds which are normal in southern BC. You might even want to do some fun local races.

If sailing is not a high priority and while you enjoy it when there is a nice breeze your quite happy to motor in light winds and your real enjoyment is laying at anchor then something like the first choice might fit you better.

Either way for local cruising you certainly don't need the higher quality and strength as well as price of what many choose for offshore.

[waterman46]

I see lots of problems with newer boat designs.

They now put two helms next to each other in the same cockpit, so you need two sets of all instrumentation and engine controls to get the same convenience and visibility of a single helm. They put the reefing in the mast where it can jam and give you a lousy sail shape. They open the transom so it can scoop up waves. They lighten the hull layups for another knot of speed. There are catamarans where the helmsman, or anyone on watch in the cockpit, has to climb three steps to sit where he can see over a high cabin.

There are, however, still sensible ocean cruisers being built. Just not those sexy ones you see at boat shows.