Buying sailboat without a broker

[USMCOrdO]

How do I properly value a boat without the aid of a broker to provide MLS data so I can make a solid first offer? Is there a way to get the MLS listing of all current boats for sale and all sold boats to review the market trends by type?

Background: I have been sailing off and on since a teen, have taught basic sailing in the past, the taken classes on basic and advanced keel boat sailing. I have also taken Power squadron classes up through Advanced Piloting and am working on Junior Navigation. In the last few years have crewed on the wed night races in the summer.
I currently own a bowrider power boat and the kids and I have had fun with it in the Waters around Norfolk, VA but with 2 of the kids adults and have moved out of the house and the last a Junior in HS, I'm looking to buy my first sailboat and really get into sailing and exploring the bay.
I have been to shows and marinas and have met one sailboat broker. We spoke and I asked for some info and he stopped communicating. After a couple of weeks of radio silence, I contacted another broker and we corresponded a few times and then he too went quiet. I'm not sure if i'm a poor communicator, being overly demanding or if the amount of commission isn't "worth" their full time and attention.
I'm looking for something 33-40 foot, prefer a center cockpit but that isn't a hard and fast, staying around $60K. I have done lots of research and homework and found several boats that fit the bill and have visited a few. 2000 Beneteau 331, 2006 Beneteau 323, 1993 Catalina 36 MKII, and really want to look at a Beneteau 36CC but I can't find any for sale within 200 miles, and the brokers quit communicating.

So the questions again are, how do I properly value a boat without the aid of a broker to provide the MLS to make the first offer? Can I get the MLS listing of all sold boats to review the market trends by type?

Thanks
Jay

[geoleo]

Originally Posted by USMCOrdO

How do I properly value a boat without the aid of a broker to provide MLS data so I can make a solid first offer? Is there a way to get the MLS listing of all current boats for sale and all sold boats to review the market trends by type?

Background: I have been sailing off and on since a teen, have taught basic sailing in the past, the taken classes on basic and advanced keel boat sailing. I have also taken Power squadron classes up through Advanced Piloting and am working on Junior Navigation. In the last few years have crewed on the wed night races in the summer.
I currently own a bowrider power boat and the kids and I have had fun with it in the Waters around Norfolk, VA but with 2 of the kids adults and have moved out of the house and the last a Junior in HS, I'm looking to buy my first sailboat and really get into sailing and exploring the bay.
I have been to shows and marinas and have met one sailboat broker. We spoke and I asked for some info and he stopped communicating. After a couple of weeks of radio silence, I contacted another broker and we corresponded a few times and then he too went quiet. I'm not sure if i'm a poor communicator, being overly demanding or if the amount of commission isn't "worth" their full time and attention.
I'm looking for something 33-40 foot, prefer a center cockpit but that isn't a hard and fast, staying around $60K. I have done lots of research and homework and found several boats that fit the bill and have visited a few. 2000 Beneteau 331, 2006 Beneteau 323, 1993 Catalina 36 MKII, and really want to look at a Beneteau 36CC but I can't find any for sale within 200 miles, and the brokers quit communicating.

So the questions again are, how do I properly value a boat without the aid of a broker to provide the MLS to make the first offer? Can I get the MLS listing of all sold boats to review the market trends by type?

Thanks
Jay

A 40ft is about twice the size of a 33ft

[geoleo]

Originally Posted by geoleo

A 40ft is about twice the size of a 33ft

All "Brokers" just want a sale at 'any' price--you can get a sense of the prices by seeing ads on internet including local craigslist ads. Your best way is to forget brokers and buy direct from owners. Get a good local surveyor on your side --they also know about good local buys that may be available.

[Bill O]

Originally Posted by geoleo

All "Brokers" just want a sale at 'any' price--you can get a sense of the prices by seeing ads on internet including local craigslist ads. Your best way is to forget brokers and buy direct from owners. Get a good local surveyor on your side --they also know about good local buys that may be available.

If this is your first sailboat, would stick w/the 33'(ish) size boats you mentioned until you get the hang of it.

Some sage advice from geoleo. If you are purchasing a "Broker" boat, then its somewhat "expected" you have a buyer's broker. This costs you nothing ($$) as the buyer and seller brokers split the commission. The rub is finding a buyer's broker you like/trust to work the best deal for you.
Usually the broker boats have a much higher price tag, but in most cases they also don't like to pedal junk either. Craigslist is a mixed bag and you can find real gems but could take a while. Having some sailing and boat maintenance experience is optimal to weed out the junk and make sure they are priced accordingly. This up front weeding process is helpful before you hire a surveyor. Even if you do see problems w/CL boats, you need the surveyor w/the "creds" to validate your findings and still may be difficult to reduce the asking price. With a broker boat you are more likely to have the owner fix major problems/things before the sale w/the higher asking prices.


Bill O.

[Jaqun]

Also make sure you have a contract that states all the terms for the sale including the deposit and what is expected from both sides in terms of the survey, hauling etc.. There are templates available if you poke around online.
This cautionary tale brought to you by experience.

[Caliber40]

One of the reasons you are not hearing back from your brokers is a $60,000 boat will generate a maximum of $6000 commission which is likely going to be split into leaving each broker with $3000. By the time they pay expenses travel back-and-forth showing the boat etc. etc. they will make very little.

I would look through all the brokers listings and sale by Owners listings for similar boats To try and determine a fair price.

Good luck

[Jackz]

I would suggest you really narrow it down to the specific boats, years, models, etc that you are most interested in, then you can follow the market on your own and learn what reasonable prices are and be ready to pounce on the boat you find with a good clean offer to the owner.

[Scubaseas]

BUCnet has a paid subscription of sales pricing history. BoatUS has a valuation service for members.



Agree with brokers not wanting to show any boat listed for less than $100K unless it's on their dock/in their yard.



Your surveyor may have a subscription to soldboats.com

[jlb]

Check your local library. They may have BUC books. They are like blue books for used boats.

[Exctyengr]

Welcome, USMCOrdO! I have purchases several sailboats without a broker. Usually through word of mouth, friend of a friend and most recently Craigslist. So brokers are just salespeople. I have had the opportunity to take a class or two on surveying a boat and these have been helpful. With the kind of investment that you are making, a good survey is vital, find a boat you like through Craigslist, Yachtworld or word of mouth, and make an offer subject to survey and sea trial. Others might chime in here but I usually expect to offer 20% below asking on a well maintained, well presented boat.
Make sure that you have a place to keep it and have a place in mind before contracting for the boat.
I have owned a Catalina 36 and they are excellent boats, reasonably well made, easy, fast sailers and comfortable for a night, weekend or week. Plus they are popular and easy to sell when that time comes.
Check out Marine Survey 101 for some tips on checking a boat out.
Best to you, thanks for your service, (Army engineer, 1961-1988)

[TrentePieds]

Jay:

It doesn't take long to work up a spreadsheet of asking prices for all boats advertised on HolyMotherNet that you might be interested in. Sort them by make and model. Determine the average list price for each make and model. There is your basic offer for that make and model. That should be your offer for boats of that make and model in "A1" condition. As you look a particular boats discount it from that initial offer according to the particular boat's condition.

What, precisely, is "A1 condition"? No-one knows, but a good starting for you, judging by the way you ask your question, is to familiarize yourself with our member Boatpoker's wonderful paper Surveying 101. There is absolutely NO sense in spending money on a professional surveyor until and unless you have satisfied yourself (relying on that paper) that the boat should remain on your list of candidates.

Once you OWN a boat, your Insurance Underwriters will insist on having a survey performed by an ACCREDITED surveyor. Cost of that is a part of your acquisition costs, so save your money for that. Boats are NOT like real estate because they depreciate. They do NOT (ever) increase in value, so do not offer, let alone pay, more for a boat than you can afford to walk away from still with a smile on your face.

Remember also that most people can find the money to BUY a boat. Far fewer can find the money to KEEP that boat. For the size of boat you are positing in your post, budget $15K/annum for OWNERSHIP costs to keep the boat in middling condition. If you are planning on a finite period of ownership, budget to depreciate the boat to zero during that time. Then, if you succeed in selling, rather than scrapping, the recovered amount is all "gravy". In rough terms, for the sorts of boats you are citing, every three years of ownership will cost you as much as the acquisition cost of a vessel in "acceptable" (NOT "A1"). condition.

You DON'T need a broker. You DO need a lawyer or a Notary Public to handle the escrow for the transaction. Apart from that, you are entirely on your own.

Best of luck with your acquisition :-)

TrentePieds

[zstine]

I recommend you spend a few weekends looking at the boats you are interested in. Just contact the seller's brokers on Yachtworld and make an appointment. You will quickly be able to judge what a boat is worth for yourself. When I was looking (2012) I saw 5 or 6 boats in the RI area in 1 weekend. Some of the boats you couldn't turn the winches and there was water damage, others stank of diesel below, but one or 2 were nice b/c the seller was actually motivated. The best one I saw that day had a bunch of new stuff. The seller, a retired engineer, had kept the boat meticulously and due to health issues, had the boat priced lower than some of the stinky boats.... His asking price was close to true market value, where the others were many thousands, maybe 10's of thousands overpriced.

With the knowledge of looking at boats, you will have the confidence to judge market value for yourself. We eventually bought our 1975 Tartan 41' without a broker. The owner had reduced to $44.9k from $49k when we looked at her and he accepted a $37k offer. After survey findings, we eventually paid just $34k due to some issues. I am happy with that and did not need a broker. We have since put $25k in upgrades into her.... She is for sale in NJ if interested!!! mid-$40k, ready for long distance cruising.


The seller's broker accepted 'dual representation' and handled the paperwork and escrow. I didn't have one. I second the notion of reading up on how to survey the boat for yourself. Not all insurance companies (progressive for ex) require a survey, but it makes for a good negotiation tool.

[CaptsWife]

Sending you a PM.

[PuttingDoctor]

Find the boat you like that fits your needs. Then have a sea trial and out of the water survey at your expense. From there you can make an offer.
I bought my first Irwin 38 for $20K less than asking due to the story I heard from the sellers.... which conflicted between husband and wife. You can’t insult someone with a lowball offer. It’s just a starting point.
I was almost gifted my current Irwin 46 almost. I flew out to see her when the owners stated on our Facebook group that they just wanted to get out of it what they had in it. I looked at it next day in Pascagoula, Mississippi and picked it up for $1500 less than originally asked.... you just never know.
Come on over to our 1400 strong owners group on Facebook. Irwin Sailboats.

[CassidyNZ]

Originally Posted by PuttingDoctor

Find the boat you like that fits your needs. Then have a sea trial and out of the water survey at your expense. From there you can make an offer.

In my experience not many sellers will entertain a sea trial etc. until there is a firm offer in place and mostly even a deposit in escrow. And at that point you’re going to need a compelling reason to stop the sale. “I don’t like it” probably won’t cut it.

If sellers do this where you live, we should be recommending this as a process for newbies to get into sailing . Just find some guy who is selling a boat and go sailing. As I said, in my experience, not likely.