Bumps on a steel keel - PICS

[techmans]

Not much to worry about here.Weld up the crack and leave the rest alone.Structurally it will be fine.
I did naval architecture and metal science at university, specialized in welding.Was chief welding, NDE and metals engineer at a nuclear reactor vessel manufacturing shop.
No reason to get a metallurgist; the worst steel plate is good enough for the application.
For any steel boat of this size you always have to use thicker plate for sheer cosmetic reasons than you need for structural integrity.For the keel, which is out of sight, they may have ignored the rule and ended up with the bumps and the tear, possibly aided by freeze-thaw cycles.

[TheThunderbird]

Originally Posted by techmans

Not much to worry about here.Weld up the crack and leave the rest alone.Structurally it will be fine.
I did naval architecture and metal science at university, specialized in welding.Was chief welding, NDE and metals engineer at a nuclear reactor vessel manufacturing shop.
No reason to get a metallurgist; the worst steel plate is good enough for the application.
For any steel boat of this size you always have to use thicker plate for sheer cosmetic reasons than you need for structural integrity.For the keel, which is out of sight, they may have ignored the rule and ended up with the bumps and the tear, possibly aided by freeze-thaw cycles.

In theory yes. You can add metal patches everywhere, on a mega-ship too. Strain is quite minimal as they float INSIDE the sea, as an "island".

A ballast external to the keel introduces substantial and localised strains, and fatigue cycles too, on hiving, rolling, waving..as a multiple of the actual weight (tonnes). Therefore I would not play down the consequences of a sloppy design in a (most) critical structural part... this is NOT a hull surface, a dividing bulkhead.... :-)

Even on best modern designs, the final tip of ballast-to-hull line may creep, and usually a silicon bump-absorption layer is put in place...

I spoke with people from WALLY i.e. state-of-the-art on subject.


Again, I don't like that boat, it has no grace :-) ...and possibly, no wit, alas

PS my ballast is 11tonnes, kept by 12 bolts, each capable to keep it in place alone (32mms diam.)

[TheThunderbird]

Sorry gentlemen... but the boat overall looks poorly designed, and executed.

Therefore, if such a sub-standard craftsmanship was applied to a prominent item as keel ballast is, what else is hiding around!?

Said that, the issue to me seems only aesthetic. Cleaning, primer, solid filling.

However, I don't like that hull/keel in shape, size, execution... sorry :-)

PS that ballast looks possibly empty inside. Knocking around, it should become apparent.
In that case, some structural considerations should be arisen, after probing thickness, state, etc. Because CLEARLY it was hardly a professional work

[brianlara 3]

ANY EXPERT, ANY SHIP DESIGNER who looks at that boat from thirty feet and DOESNT then turn and walk away is a person with no fear and bottomless pockets.
I am not that expert but irrespective of this vessels price it is too expensive.
WHY do we all suspect, just suspect, that its bieng sold.
Imagine what cant be seen.
OMG....walk away...or become a fool IMO.

[bcfurumasu]

The pictures look like a coating failure, are the bumps/bubbles soft and can easily be peeled away? (or is this the oil can effect of adding the lead) I have a steel sail boat and did a haul out this past summer and some extensive hull work. If this is a coating failure, you will need to grind the failed coating down to "white" metal and back to where the coating has good adhesion to the hull. Then clean and apply a coating regiment. In my own case after removing the failed coating, cleaned with a solvent, applied 2 coats of Rust Lok and 3 or 4 coats of a two part epoxy barrier to 15+ mils.
Hope this is helpful. Good Luck... Brian

[El Pinguino]

My thoughts on the original post pre this thread..

Confirmed by the photos...

Don't walk away... RUN ... and leave no forwarding addy....

[Lepke]

I am a former shipwright, certified welder, etc. Not claiming to be an expert, but I've seen lots of boat/ship issues.
As others said, I would cut enough of the steel out around the crack to really see what's inside. The dents/unevenness/ripples is caused by a bad welding technique. Step welding rather than continuous welding leaves a smoother finish. That doesn't mean the weld is weak, just unsightly. Often on ships where continuous welding was used, there will be plate dimples between all the frames and stringers. Steel sailing keels I have seen, usually are oil or cement filled. Some use them for as keel cooler. With zincs and proper coolant they seem to last. If it was used as a keel cooler, there should be a plug on the bottom. If they do rust out, you can usually just cut the keel off and build a new one. I'm surprised the leading edge is so blunt.

[Rustic Charm]

Absolute poppy cock. You can't tell if this boats a dead end by these mere photo.s :

This is pure armchairism at its worse when some of start pretending you know so much from just looking at a keel.

[thruska]

I agree with Lepke. I to have steel shipyard experience. Others who have posted have made good points. Happy day, I agree the cradle is certainly a dandy.
Uncivilized makes much sense. And Rustic charm, l agree that she is not to judged scrap yet as we don't yet have enough info on the vessel.
We don't know the price, nor location. Is there actually lead in her keel ? How long has she sat, perhaps open to the elements ? We have no other pics of the vessel to surmise her worth.
The pic of the crack that is circled is , imho, a separation from inner baffle or framework, consisting of plate which has lightening holes. This framework should be tied in to the hull frames and longitudinals
The crack itself resembles one that's formed from freezing of substantial ingress of water. Likewise the forward bulges resemble freezing water.
As others have said , a cutting of the keel plates at specified areas to inspect the inner works needs to be done. If the present owner will not allow that, then I suggest to walk away, as something then is fishy. You must look into the core of the problem, and still be able to walk if need be.
Good luck !

[gjordan]

The first thing I would do is lift the floor-boards and see what is underneath. The area in question is the forward part of the keel, and may well be an integral watertank that someone forgot to drain for the winter, or a sump (normally at the rear of a keel but who knows) that got water in over the winter. With a second look at the photo of the crack, it does appear to be just a filler failure (based on no signs of rust weeping), and probably is an easy fix. It is also in the front area of the keel, so a look under the floor-boards is in order. A good survey is in order, but a few minutes with a hammer will tell you a lot. Surveying steel boats is not a delicate job, and the gentle taps of a screwdriver handle wont tell you much. The keel should be thicker than the topsides, so banging with a regular hammer will not hurt it, UNLESS IT IS RUSTED BADLY FROM THE INSIDE. I am not talking about two armed swings with a sledge, but a normal 16 ounce carpenters hammer tapped all over the keel will give you a good idea of what the normal sound is, and you will quickly notice if there are dull sounding, or different ringing sounding spots. It will also tell you if the areas that are welded to frames (easy to spot in the photos) are still solid, or have broken loose from freezing. A seller may balk at an amature banging on his boat, but that is what the professional surveyor will do. As has been already stated by others on this thread, the condition of the rest of the boat and what other repairs are needed is more important than lumps in a keel. I am assuming (dangerous word) that your intention is cruising, and not trying to race a long keeled steel boat. I doubt that those lumps would add more than a couple of hours on a long passage. Clean bottom and a Max-Prop will make much more difference. If the boat fits your needs, and a surveyor gives you a realistic idea of needed work (and cost) then it is decision making time. Best of luck to you._____ Grant.

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by Rustic Charm

Absolute poppy cock. You can't tell if this boats a dead end by these mere photo.s :

This is pure armchairism at its worse when some of start pretending you know so much from just looking at a keel.

It may not be a dead end but why buy those known problems when there are plenty of well presented boats which will surprise and delight you with all sorts of problems unknown at time of aquisition?

I have never pretended to know much about anything but I have spent enough time around steel ships to know a ship to avoid when I see it.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

It may not be a dead end but why buy those known problems when there are plenty of well presented boats which will surprise and delight you with all sorts of problems unknown at time of aquisition?

I have never pretended to know much about anything but I have spent enough time around steel ships to know a ship to avoid when I see it.

I won't get long winded. A great suggestion.

[Rustic Charm]

Ping has raised a good point. I went over the previous post and you have previously posted the following;

- Vessel is not finished and you intend to have a 'professional' finish the vessel
- You can get it 'cheap' but later clarified 'not that cheap';
- it has a 'proven' history of ownership having been made professionally at a ship yard and then temporarily sold to a sail club before going to an armature who poured 3 tonnes of led which you were told damaged the keel.

Other than this you have posted really nothing else on the vessel. The pictures of the keel are enough to say you have been ill advised about the pouring of lead. The keel pictures certainly wouldn't put me off alone, but there is clearly a lot more to this. The pictures to me suggest the hull was not professionally built as you were advised. The large seam weld on the hull in one of the pictures is indicative of a very amature built boat. As you have heard from those who have the knowledge, pouring hot lead did not do this damage (and you really can't cool lead anyway, it's either liquid and can pour or its solid and you can't).

As Ping has pointed out 'why' spend any money on this when its in an unfinished state and you can very cheaply get a going, running, ready to sail, boat?

I've had to read both threads to come to this conclusion, but with the few photos you have posted and the little information provided, I'd say give it a miss too. There's plenty of other fish in the sea ready to go.

[Cadence]

I hade to go back and check. It is a boat under consideration. I would walk.

[GILow]

I have no idea if the boat is ok or not, but the question that keeps coming to my mind is "why?".


Seriously, why start from a doubtful position when a bit of patience is bound to turn up something less uncertain. No matter what you buy there are going to be some undesirable surprises, why start off with the probability of increasing those risks?


I doubt there is a great risk of regret in not buying the boat.


We took three years to find our boat and not a day goes by that I am not glad we did not rush the process. When I think what we looked at and might have bought I get cold shivers.


Matt