Bluewater Cruising Capability

[Mr B]

Thats the sort of video's people should watch before contemplating crossing oceans,
instead of the calm water ones,

Because of schedules, Big ships are always heading into the waves, Because they have the power to do it. its not a problem to them,

But sailing and cruising boats its much easier and safer and much more comfortable to just run before it, It doesnt break any thing either,

That yellow Yacht reminds me of crossing the bar and coming out of the Maroochy river, I would have loved to have seen a Video of it, The waves weren't as big tho,

[Celestialsailor]

Apparently that was a yacht that was either coming into a harbor or going out. That's why the seas are so stacked up. Notice too, the mizzen spreader is broken. Also the lee clothes are blown out (it's not laundry) Yes, it looks like a handful but I doubt a flat bottom sled is going to do much better in those seas. Not sure you can apply the "Fast is Fun" scenario here.

[thomm225]

Another video showing what "fun" it can be sailing offshore on a small boat. Contessa 26 in this a case.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8r3mno5oo7s

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Mr B

Thats the sort of video's people should watch before contemplating crossing oceans,
instead of the calm water ones,

No its not, these videos are not indicative of anything, they are for the average "you tuber" to ooggle at . the Racing boat was doing fine in moderate to heavy conditions, The yachts in a bar crossing and shouldnt be there in the first place,

All nonsense really , and anyway, you beleive what you see on your tube !!,

Dave

[Randyonr3]

Something that hasn't surfaced as far as yet. That would be.the difference in the way the boat handles when loaded. In a smaller boat, a heavyweight might be more desirable as the stores loaded would be of less of a percentage than a lightweight.
A few years ago, I was toying with the idea of doing the single handed transpac but the boat I was racing was a 24 foot. When the stores were loaded to do the race, the boat handled completly different. To the point I felt it was unsafe.
Before choosing a boat for crossing oceans, you might want to figure how it will handle when loaded ......

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

No its not, these videos are not indicative of anything, they are for the average "you tuber" to ooggle at . the Racing boat was doing fine in moderate to heavy conditions, The yachts in a bar crossing and shouldnt be there in the first place,

All nonsense really , and anyway, you beleive what you see on your tube !!,

Dave

The old narrow full keel double masted boat (anyone know the make/model?) was actually in trouble. The video came from the guys on the rescue helo. The crew on the boat was able to get their leak fixed btw. The boat was on cruise control at the time of the video with the tiller centered and a small amount of jib out to keep it running before the wind.

The yacht "crossing the bar" was simply headed out (the channel) for the day (or the week). Check the crew member holding the boom in place. Those guys had done this before.

[Blue Crab]

Originally Posted by thomm225

...The yacht "crossing the bar" was simply headed out (the channel) for the day (or the week). Check the crew member holding the boom in place. Those guys had done this before.

I can't see doing this a 2nd time, if one survived the first.

[wolfenzee]

Originally Posted by Randyonr3

Something that hasn't surfaced as far as yet. That would be.the difference in the way the boat handles when loaded. In a smaller boat, a heavyweight might be more desirable as the stores loaded would be of less of a percentage than a lightweight.
A few years ago, I was toying with the idea of doing the single handed transpac but the boat I was racing was a 24 foot. When the stores were loaded to do the race, the boat handled completly different. To the point I felt it was unsafe.
Before choosing a boat for crossing oceans, you might want to figure how it will handle when loaded ......

I remeber reading an article about heavy disp vs light disp boats for long range cruising....when you loaded them both with the food, water, fuel and other supplies necessary for a long passage the percentage of the boats design displacement was insignificant in a heavy displacement boat but the impact on a light displacement boat had the boat sitting so low in the water it defeated the advantage of a light disp boat. Example figuring on 1500lbs extra weight on a 15,000lb boat (heavy disp) is 10%, 11250lb (medium disp) is 15% , and a 7,500lb boat (light disp) is 20% when you start figuring the ultra light disp. boats it just doesn't work for passage making,

[Randyonr3]

Originally Posted by wolfenzee

I remeber reading an article about heavy disp vs light disp boats for long range cruising....when you loaded them both with the food, water, fuel and other supplies necessary for a long passage the percentage of the boats design displacement was insignificant in a heavy displacement boat but the impact on a light displacement boat had the boat sitting so low in the water it defeated the advantage of a light disp boat. Example figuring on 1500lbs extra weight on a 15,000lb boat (heavy disp) is 10%, 11250lb (medium disp) is 15% , and a 7,500lb boat (light disp) is 20% when you start figuring the ultra light disp. boats it just doesn't work for passage making,

With that being said, it makes more sence to sail lighter weight boat as the size
Gains size..so if you buy small, buy heavy, buy large, buy lite.....
Our Beneteau at 42 feet weighs in at 24k dry weight... And was designed for.a full crew
While under flight.. take the crew size down to two people and it makes a good choice as a cruiser, much like many of the production boats being built today....

[sailorboy1]

on my "lightweight" with my normal loading of "stuff" plus 2 people the waterline is at least 2" below the design waterline

I don't expect a problem with cruising load unless I decide I need to have more than 1 cow's worth of beef for the trip

[wolfenzee]

Originally Posted by Randyonr3

With that being said, it makes more sence to sail lighter weight boat as the size
Gains size..so if you buy small, buy heavy, buy large, buy lite.....
Our Beneteau at 42 feet weighs in at 24k dry weight... And was designed for.a full crew
While under flight.. take the crew size down to two people and it makes a good choice as a cruiser, much like many of the production boats being built today....

American marketing tries to cram as many people as possible into a boat, figuring the "average sailor" is a husband, wife and kids doing weekend coastal cruising. I used to work for the US importer of a Swedish built boat....the versions built for the American market all had extra bunks.
When asked the question "how many people does your boat sleep". The best answer I have heard was "It has bunks for 6, it sleeps 2" a variation of that is "drinks for 6, dinner for 4, it sleeps 2". There is no reason to have to infringe on your comfort so as to cut wieght.

[noelex 77]

One aspect that has been touched on in this thread, but not covered in great detail is blue water cruising ability.
Long distance cruising does place some extra demands on a boat beyond the seaworthiness requirements. Some of these requirements are:

Large water and fuel tanks
Large gas storage
Large food /spares storage
Quality durable finishes ( the boat is likely to used most of the year not just a few weekends)
Quality ancillary equipment and installation( as above it will be used much more and repair in out of the way places is difficult)
Room for lots of solar /wind
Protected steering position (hard dodger)
The ability to handle good anchoring gear (storage for lots of chain powerful anchor winch)
A sail plan suitable for a short handed crew and heavy weather (cutter?)
Backup systems
Dinghy storage
Impact durability (encapsulated keel, watertight bulkheads)
Large sleeping berths
Strong cleats

I am sure there are many others I have left out.

These are the areas that boats that have been designed from the ground up as cruising boats like Amel, Halberg Rassy etc do better as blue water cruising boats than boats that have designed for a more general charter, cruising, racing, week end vacation type use.
These dedicated cruising boats are lot more expensive and whether this is justified is up to the individual, but to focus just on seaworthiness, when comparing blue water cruising boats is missing most of important differences.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

One aspect that has been touched on in this thread, ....

Large water and fuel tanks
Large gas storage
Large food /spares storage
Quality durable finishes ( the boat is likely to used most of the year not just a few weekends)
Quality ancillary equipment and installation( as above it will be used much more and repair in out of the way places is difficult)
Room for lots of solar /wind
Protected steering position (hard dodger)
The ability to handle good anchoring gear (storage for lots of chain powerful anchor winch)
A sail plan suitable for a short handed crew and heavy weather (cutter?)
Backup systems
Dinghy storage
Impact durability (encapsulated keel, watertight bulkheads)
Large sleeping berths
Strong cleats

......

Large water

Ok. You can cross the Atlantic with 4 crew on 400 litres of water , not difficult to carry in most production boats if you include bottled water. Or fit a water maker

Fuel tanks.

Why do they need to be big , it's a sailing boat they need to be adequate that's all.

Large gas

Why, ? you can cover the Atlantic on two camping Gaz cylinders

Large food.

You can take enough food for 4 on a production 40 footer to cross the pond again no problem, what with modern foods etc. funny even on smaller islands there are quite good stores these days. It not the 1950s. On average on passage 1-2 weeks food is enough, only occasionally will you need 3-5 weeks and then you use up every a available space

Quality durable finish.

You can't beat GRP, Ogh HR are cored , where Hanse is all solid vinyl ester. Yep quality , interiors. Modern laminated etc far more durable then hand crafted teak. Doesn't look as good of course. ( ps all teak interiors can be incredibly noisy at sea )

Quality equipment. Virtually all deck gear, engines, gennys electronics are the same from hanse to HR , yanmar, Volvo, seldon facnor, Lewmar, giot etc etc.

Hard dodger
Well that's eliminated 99% of everything under 55 feet. Even HR has to go big to get hard dodger on the smaller ones you need to be about 5 feet tall to use them effectively. The HR dodgers on the 46 ate a joke if you're in any way tall.

solar/ Wind

While we talk about these, they are nice to haves , you can get buy with a good alternator most solar systems are to provide self sufficiency at anchor anyway, underway a good towed genny is a compact option. Most boats anyway have to be modified to carry solar

Anchoring gear,
I've seen quality boats with rubbish and ordinary production with good setups and everything in between


Sail plan
That's not dependant on any type of vessel. Modern furlers have rendered the cutter less advantageous then previously. There are few cutters anyway, most are slutters , myself I think the Solent rig is better especially downwind.

Impact durability
You pan on hitting things in the middle of an ocean very rare event , your much more likely to fall overboard. List the boats with good watertight bulkheads !!

You see what you've described is not met by almost any boat today wether its HR or beneteau. All need tweaks and twiddles. In all a function of perception , and marketing hype.

The fact is a well prepared production boat like beneteau, Hanse etc will do what you want. , don't beleive me, look at the many doing it. Of course you may have 1000000 euros for a 55 foot Amel ( slagged of in France as an old mans slow boat ) ( and full of custom Amel spare parts , try getting a furling motor outside Amel) others can pay under 200k and get a 40. Footer. I can tell you I'd prefer to start with a 45 foot Benny and put another 100k in then buy an Amel.

Lets leave long keeled heavy boats to the era of captain Bligh its time to see the real world. You don't need a oyster ( fin keel) or a Tayana ( Far East quality !) to do bluewater. Not all bluewater is ocean crossing most is island or coastal hopping , since most people want to go by sea to see land ! The traditional requirement of stacks of food has been overtaken by modern packaged foods and better land based stores. Read Dashew , look to modern designs etc.

The so called better quality boats are often only marginally better,( look at all the quality issues with Far East boats like Tayanas, or the osmosis issues with valiant 40s etc ) often under the hood the real advantages are minimal. Most of the money goes into high labour costs and manual procedures , higher cosmetic finishes and price positioning. Take a look at Morgan cars beautiful expensive hand crafted , I'd still take a Toyota across the dessert though !

Dave

[Mr B]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Large water

Take a look at Morgan cars beautiful expensive hand crafted , I'd still take a Toyota across the dessert though !

Dave

That says it all. With the Toyota, at least you will get back,

[wolfenzee]

There are some beautifully handcrafted wooden boats around here (the equivalent of a Morgan....down right sexy) which I wouldn't take out of sight of land and/or have out in more than 20kt winds.....there are also some production boats that I feel the same way about.
If I were to have my boat commissioned and built from scratch not only couldn't I afford it it wouldn't be worth it (the engine new costs almost what I paid for the boat)....There are alot of well designed, well built boats out there that have been around awhile, been upgraded and improved on over the years but because of time and the economy have a low price tag.