Bluewater Boat

[slap]

Originally Posted by Brent Swain

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They didn't build the same thickness 30 years ago, they built them much thicker. Keels didn't fall of so often back then, and they didn't capsize and stay capsized back then. Osmossis was almost unheard of before 1980.

Keels falling off are a very, very rare occurance. And the fin keels 30 tears ago had much longer root chord lengths than the high performance keels today. The longer lengths spread the loads over a larger area of the hull.

Osmosis - significant blistering - started showing up around 1973.

While the hulls are not as thick today (ignoring cored hulls), better resins, better building techniques, and better framing can give you a stronger hull with a thinner hull thickness.

[sneuman]

I'm not a materials expert either, but there is - IMHO - something to be said for fiberglass thickness in older boats.

Thinner may be just as strong today in some respects, but in the end, if there's 3/4" of glass between you and a piling, it's still 1/2" more than you'll find in many of today's boats. Better layup schedules are one thing, but fiberglass resin - and for the most part the cloth too - are essentially the same today as 30 years ago - the formulations have not changed drastically.

[pressuredrop]

Originally Posted by slap

Osmosis - significant blistering - started showing up around 1973.

which is (coincidentally) when (petroleum based) resins were reformulated as a result of the oil embargo...

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

And in reality he is not an ideal example of a modern man. He was very flawed. Equally the boat was very very rough by modern standards.

ROFLMBO....... So was my hero in 'CigarGate....'... "No baby... it aint a cuban..."
Show me a man who is'nt...

[S&S]

FWIW, a circumnavigation along the "coconut run" is not the same as high latitude cruising. Horses for courses. If you're staying between 30N and 30S and have access to good weather forecasting, a beamy production boat with roller this and in-mast that should work fine. As it usually does. A number of people have gone RTW on Hunters, Beneteaus etc. The further North (or South) you go the more you see "purpose built" boats, mostly in steel or aluminum and for good reason.

[storyinframes]

Probably not

I decided to be positive with my boat choice and will be sailing in conditions like this

@hoppy: yeah I like this idea of sailing crew in Bikinis. And then go hunting for a storm so that you are locked inside with all the pretty bunnys. Eh! wishful thinking. let me get a goddamn boat first.

[wolfenzee]

Originally Posted by RainDog

I do not think this is quite correct. I am not a materials engineer, but my understanding is that as they have learned how to reduce the amount of resin in fiberglass, it has gotten much stronger inch-for-inch and pound-for-pound.

A hull build using a process such as SCRIMP (just to name one example) is much stronger than a hull of the same thickness build 30 years ago.

Just because a materiel is stronger inch for inch pound for pound.....doesn't mean it is a stronger or even equally strong boat. The newer technology/manufacturing processes do allow boats to be made thinner, though manufacturers do not stop when at the strength of the older boats....they make them even thinner and lighter....great for racing and to save money on production.
There is alot more to a blue water boat than hull strength. Standing rigging, running rigging, sails, fittings, ports,....all should be stronger. The boat boat should have increased fuel, water and propane tankage, increased storage for more food, clothes etc.....this all adds significant weight that effects a light weight boat much more dramatically than a heavy displacement boat. A heavier boat rides more comfortably in heavy seas reducing fatigue on the crew (fatigue is alot more dangerous than most people think).

[Brent Swain]

Most of the scantlings for modern production boats are designed for the empty displacement of the boat, which is far below the fully loaded cruising weight .

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Brent Swain

Most of the scantlings for modern production boats are designed for the empty displacement of the boat, which is far below the fully loaded cruising weight .

Brent this is just an unsubstantiated generic comment,no proof. no evidence, you might as well state the earth is flat.

Again the undeniable thruth is that 100's of modern production boats are circumnavigating, once it was a unique activity undertaken by a very select few, now many do, part of that reason ( amongst better nav and weather info) is that modern production boats are just better, better built , fail less and get there.

Look at the ARC these boats are outside any reliable weather forecasting, and they regulary meet 50+ knots squalls, its full of essentially standard production boats ( Beneteau being the biggest group in the 2010 ARC). Evidence Brent evidence.

Dave

[DeepFrz]

Modern construction METHODS and MATERIALS are far superior to the old hand laid polyester and glass methods. They do make for a lighter boat and if used properly make for a lighter stronger boat. Areas of concern for me in modern production boats are fewer keel bolts in a smaller area, and spade rudders. Manufacturers have not addressed the problems of metal fatigue in spade rudders. Actually, they refuse to acknowledge the problem so how can they address it.

Actually many boats still use a hand layup and except for a few outer layers to address the blistering problem, they are still made with polyester resin. Then they cut down the thickness of the hull and this leads to a lesser quality boat IMHO.

In the above statement I am referring to methods such as vacuum infusion and materials such as vinylester and epoxy resins.

[sailorboy1]

All this has been interesting. But in the end it's all just talk compared to the FACT that there are "production" boats all around the world doing it.

Now I'm out the door to get into my 1965 Buick for a trip down to the store (I like that it a nice solid heavy peice of equipment that will crush those tiny death traps made now days).

And I am of course joking, other than the FACT part.

[clockwork orange]

This whole argument that that everything needs to be heavier built on a bluewater cruiser is hogwash just the same as you need heavy displacement to carry a cruising payload. If i saw a boat advertised with my personal favorite "oversized rigging" i would give it a pass. Ive nothing against heavy displacement boats, in fact i like em for their motion,however often times they are so ridiculously overbuilt that they in fact dont have great payload capacity if you want to float anywhere near the DWL(which,if it doesnt ,it renders all those numbers which people these days are so fond of meaningless) If a classic "Bluewater boat" such as the Westsail 32 as an example were to be engineered today with a robust foam cored structure and an eye to weight saving throughout,you could probably add a couple of thousand pounds payload and float on its lines and be a much better boat for it. As Don said there are boats of all stripes out there doing it that many would not consider bluewater boats,such as forum member Mark J and his mighty Beneteau who just completed a realativly trouble free circumnavigation(well,except for a broken forestay) There are probably people who would not consider Guzzwells "Trekka" a bluewater boat but after 2 workmanlike circumnavigations it would be hard to make that argument without looking like a chump.
Steve.

[wolfenzee]

the question really isn't "is it possible to use any type of boat for blue water cruising?" but rather can I use a light wieght boat designed and fitted for weekend coastal cruising in place of an ocean cruiser designed and equipped specifically for the purpose from the ground up, the answer is yes...but not as effectively"

right tool for the right job

Also considerin the original post asks ".. which ocean going monohull boats can be obtained in a moderate budget of 37k-50k USD. length 31-36ft. looks are not an issue.." that sort of leaves the better built production boats like Beanatue out of the picture

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by wolfenzee

the question really isn't "is it possible to use any type of boat for blue water cruising?" but rather can I use a light wieght boat designed and fitted for weekend coastal cruising in place of an ocean cruiser designed and equipped specifically for the purpose from the ground up, the answer is yes...but not as effectively"

right tool for the right job

Yes but your question starts with asumptions, ie a light weight boat fitted out for coastal cruising asumption that somehow that boat is less capable. Why would a coastal boat simply by definition be less capable. It has to sail in often worse weather, near dangerous coasts and arguably requires more seamanship skills then crossing an ocean. ( I know I ve done it twice). You may argue re tankage or battery capacity, yet teh ARC shows that realatively unmodified cruisers do it fine.

And the "tools for the job" is itself in dispute, many would say that fast sailing in a modern, realatively lightweight fin and spade is a better "tool for the job", ask any modern french sailor for example.

its not that modern production yachts are compromised, many would say they are better then their predecessors.

None is taking about setting out accross an ocean unprepared, but modern production boats are as capable of "bluewater" as anything out there.

Dave

[bewitched]

My bluewater boat doesn't exist. I haven't designed it yet.

Even if I did design it, I doubt I'd ever be able to afford it.

So I go in what I can afford.

It's a compromise - it always will be