Bad Market - Good Negotiation Strategies ?

[Vagabondroller]

Craigslist, Craigslist, Craigslist. And when that doesn't work try Craigslist. Take a deep breath, apologize for what you are about to say and then offer 50% of asking price. When they decline immediately ask what their absolute lowest is. If it is 30% or more below asking buy it. If not, counter at 70% and say that is the most you will go. If they don't accept, walk and tell them to call you if they change their mind. Don't do this unless you actually are serious about the boat and willing to move forward at 70% of asking. Any serious offer is a good offer in this market. Obviously these aren't hard numbers but I get my best deals when I use this approach. Don't do this if the add say's the price is firm or "no low ballers" or if it is already priced well below market.

[deckofficer]

Originally Posted by montenido

Hi all,

To answer some questions, the boat I offered on is in good shape for its age, but nothing special. I was going to have a mechanical survey, rigging survey, and the standard survey done to check everything. I really like the boat, even though it is old. My wife, on the other hand, was less than impressed, and would like something a bit more modern and comfortable .

So, I will be looking at other boats with more of the creature comforts, as well as bluewater capability. She does not mind paying more for this, so who am I to argue?


This is the boat in question,
1979 CSY center cockpit Sloop Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

Cheers, Bill

Bill,

NADA for the boat you are interested in, even fitted out nicely, $40K tops. For a '79, sounds about right.

[Galdarol]

Of course, I'm way late to this thread, but have you found something yet? And in today's US economy, I wouldn't be surprised if that boat was still for sale.

[montenido]

Bob, thanks for the NADA, maybe I'll send it to the broker. Here is an update on my low offer extravaganza.

Long story short, they said no. But not before showing me comps of similar models that sold for low $90s. The problem with these comps, as I pointed out to the broker is that these are not identical boats. The ones in the comps had MUCH more of everything - new props, shafts, trans rebuilt, engine rebuild, ground tackle, solar, davits, canvas, paint, batteries, charging systems, electronics, rigging, interior, etc. You get the idea.

The broker is a tool, as he proceded to lecture me several times on different aspects of boat ownership and maintenance, market highs and lows, Obama's politics (yes, Obama), blisters, engine hours (without a meter!), rigging, full moon, high tides, etc., etc,., ad nauseum. All in relation to how great a deal this boat was (at $90K), and how these things were probably fine because the owner told him they were.

Too bad, cause I really like the boat. I could even go higher and make some sort of deal if the broker was not such a condescending dick.

What would be the etiquette if I came back later using my own buyer's broker, as the one described above is the seller's broker who just happened to get a call from me. Hard to imagine that I am being represented as well as possible when he is the buying and selling broker. Is it bad form to bring in somebody else if I revisit this boat offer? BTW, my check has been shredded and the offer was pulled due to hurt feelings by the seller

Sorry for the rant, but I am irked at the treatment. Remember my original post, where I asked is my offer was savvy or insulting? Guess I got my answer.

Cheers, Bill

[montenido]

David Old,

to answer your questions regarding the sale. Listed for $59k (high, I know) on a couple of sites, including Craigs List. Had it listed for 2 weeks before the first two (and only) parties came to see it. The second party offered and bought it for $52k. No brokers, no commision. Had a survey, I fixed some small things, and the money changed hands.

Believe me, I know how lucky I was to get a good price in a short amount of time, as most boats take some time.

Now I am itching to get into something else so I can start tinkering and improving again.

Cheers, Bill

[deckofficer]

Originally Posted by montenido

Bob, thanks for the NADA, maybe I'll send it to the broker.
Sorry for the rant, but I am irked at the treatment. Remember my original post, where I asked is my offer was savvy or insulting? Guess I got my answer.

Cheers, Bill

Bill,

Your offer was not a low ball, that NADA range was $33K ~ $38K, and I put stuff in that probably isn't on the boat your looking at, but I always figure by doing so, it helps cover the stuff that isn't on the NADA option list.

The rant is acceptable when dealing with some brokers. The guy that needs to finance won't be able to purchase and just because you have the funds not to need a bank, is no reason for a broker to insist on that much more than one could get a note on.

I'm with you pal.

[kthoennes]

I'm the first one to defend low offers and throw out the Godfather quote - it's just business Sonny, it's not personal - but that works both ways. I think a seller has no business being personally offended by a low offer, but the buyer shouldn't take it personally either. (I know, easy to say...)

It's not personal Sonny, just business."

[Doodles]

Originally Posted by montenido

Too bad, cause I really like the boat. I could even go higher and make some sort of deal if the broker was not such a condescending dick.

What would be the etiquette if I came back later using my own buyer's broker, as the one described above is the seller's broker who just happened to get a call from me. Hard to imagine that I am being represented as well as possible when he is the buying and selling broker. Is it bad form to bring in somebody else if I revisit this boat offer? BTW, my check has been shredded and the offer was pulled due to hurt feelings by the seller

I think you've falling into the trap. It's become personal. If you like the boat and can go higher then do it. If you end up with the boat you'll soon forget the d*^khead.

[montenido]

Doodles, I agree with you. I am going to sit for a while and look at other boats. I'll see if I like the boat any less, and if not, maybe make an offer using my own broker.

Thanks for the input everybody.

Bill

[Lake-Effect]

I agree with DSDman's summaries.

The market has its rude extremes - delusional sellers, and predatory lowballers - but most are in the middle: somebody wants to sell a boat, someone's looking for a boat and between them is a gap that they need to bridge. Where you meet in that gap depends on market savvy, salesmanship, due diligence. I guess that's where a broker earns their commission.

I laugh at some of the crazy seller (without brokers) stuff I've heard about. My favourite is one old coot who posted a long rant about if he's stipulated that his price is "as-is" then the purchaser doesn't have the right to have a surveyor look at it before purchase. Riiight. Cos he'd never hide anything, would he?

In fairness, a buyer also shouldn't get the seller jumping through hoops if he's just tire-kicking. And an outrageous lowball, with no other justification than "I have money and you don't", is likely insulting.

I found that good inspection is the key. I know what I can fix, and what I can't. I managed to find a boat that I discovered had some concerning but fixable bulkhead rot, which ultimately helped me buy her for 30% off of the original price.

[montenido]

Well, I have an accepted offer on the CSY 44. The broker in question and I made nice so that we could put together a deal. Now it is on to mechanical, rigging, and general surveys, plus sea trial.

I am pretty excited at the moment, but I do have some back-up plan boats to consider if things don't work out.

Anyway, wish me luck and I'll start a fresh post to keep you posted (if anybody is interested, LOL).

Cheers, Bill

[DSDman]

Good luck! Time is on your side.

[Delancey]

Originally Posted by DSDman

ok so this was my recent experience. found boat that I liked, found other boats of same make and size. took average of what they had actually sold for. went and looked at boat and noted all issues I could find, started subtracting came up with a price and made offer. made it clear that I new there was a huge difference from asking price but that is what I wanted to pay. so we started negotiating from there. We finally arrived at a price and then I had a decision to make, do I want it at that price? Then got survey done, tried to negotiate from there but we had arrived at the bottom dollar. So I had another decision to make...buy it or not. I started adding up the time and cost to get to that point and decided it was worth it to just go ahead and pull the trigger.

Hello All,

I thought I would chime in to let you all know that in the end I made out pretty much like DSDman through my own learning process, more or less step for step down to the part where I couldn't negotiate after survey because we had already hit rock bottom up front. This general strategy worked well for me and I am very happy with the purchase.

Weeks after closing I am glad I didn't try to squeeze extra $$$ out of the deal because having a good relationship with the PO has proved to be beneficial to me in the end and worth more than some cash up front, or at lead equal, plus we are both happy with the deal.

The boat itself is pretty much what I had expected in terms of condition, a mid eighties clorox bottle in relatively decent shape, but it is much bigger and more accommodating than the boats I originally looked at in my budget.

For those who are interested in numbers the price I paid was 30% of the asking price. If I was to do it all over again I would do it the same way. I'd look for boats that were listed at more than 30-50% of what I actually could afford, identify the ones that were a closest match to what I wanted and take it from there.

If you a deal hunting I think it helps if you can identify a boat that is poorly or under-marketed, preferably one that has been on the market for a while and has several comparable boats listed that have also been sitting for awhile, then make your move.

Money talks, be prepared to write a check with your offer. Don't fall in love with any one boat. Be prepared to reject a counter offer or walk on any deal. Take your time. Do your homework and make every effort to get to your number up front by working with the broker on selling your proposal to the owner.

Best of luck and happy sailing!

[montenido]

Delancy,

Did you pay 30% OF the asking price, or 30% OFF the asking price. Either way, you did really well. I'd be surprised if the seller was happy selling for 30% OF the asking price. Well done in any case.

Cheers, Bill

[Delancey]

Sorry about that, I paid 30% OFF of asking price. Other owners of the same type of boat I have since met on the web are all surprised and agree that I walked away with a great deal.