Why people may not help you!

[svHyLyte]

Originally Posted by svHyLyte

Frankly I dislike dwelling on this subject but... Something I have noticed is that often, the greatest kindnesses/considerations are extended by the less well to do....

Well... The foregoing comment certainly seems to have raised a fire storm.

FWIW my comment was not intended to intimate a supposition that the well to do are less charitable than the less wealthy, which is demonstrably false. Merely to point out that, often times (but not always), the less well to do seem more willing to go out of their way for another in difficulty, if, perhaps, for no other reason than their own circumstances engendering empathy with someone enduring difficulty. Of course, there is also sometimes the opposite effect--schadenfreude, '...good! You have it coming!'--if the person having difficulty is, or appears to be, more well to do, the less well to do sometimes imputing a certain undeservedness to apparent wealth. Fortunately, that was not the case in our event--a simple fisherman in an old flats boat dragging (what some would call) a "fancy pants" yacht backwards off a mud-bank.

The point of the foregoing is that IMHO one cannot/should not make assumptions about another nor, necessarily expect thanks or Laurals from another for giving aid. Knowing that one has done a "right thing" should be all the gratuity one needs, No?

FWIW...

PS: Gosh--one can certainly tell its winter. Folks sitting home, keyboards chattering, waiting out the cold rather than working on or sailing their boats. I find it interesting that the volume of "traffic" hereabouts certainly seems to increase during the inclement seasons, eh?

[zeehag]

i have an excellent network of peeps and workers... good balance...
i have recently come upon yet another individual thinking that he is owed the planet in a box. my first encounter with him was regarding his broken boat and requiring a tow. ok that aint happening in mexico unless you know someone or happen to be in a gaggle of pangas and have a 500 peso note in pocket.
so i know someone. ha ha ha ha ha
after having towed the person into harbor, having been required to estimate first then tow, and tow being 4 miles longer than anticipated by the gps coordinates used by the wetsnail owner----so price went from 100 flat to 150 usd. for 7 mile tow. not bad price actually---ended up guy paid 125.
\ok so now i have a lost puppy--he is unable to figure out things needed to be done.
logistics and sense are nonexistent.
try to put selves into the shoes of they who assist--and try no tto leach and mooch and trifle with everyone trying to repair their boats as you wander in and out of the work being done.
it is much easier to repeatedly assist someone who doesnot make a pest of self. there is a fine line between gratitude and leach. donot be the leach. and, by all means PLEASE do something for the ones helping you. there must be some give with the take. it is not expected, but itis a warm fuzzy that folks appreciate. the tiniest thing is a good sign of reciprocity.
those not having much do help much more than the richie rich with a credit card. i have seen this in person. repeatedly. however, it is the character and personality of the individuals which make the difference.
yes many credit card sailors might help--but they make a point of showing it off in public. brokeass sailors merely aid and run away.

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by zeehag

those not having much do help much more than the richie rich with a credit card. i have seen this in person. repeatedly. however, it is the character and personality of the individuals which make the difference.
yes many credit card sailors might help--but they make a point of showing it off in public. brokeass sailors merely aid and run away.

Or maybe the 'Richie rich with a credit card' aided and ran away so you didn't even know who it was that helped someone which is what you, correctly, suggest is the true spirit of giving. If those not having much appear to you to be doing the lions share of the helping others, maybe it's because they aren't doing as you suggest by helping and running away before anyone knows who it is who helped? If they were doing that, how would you have learned it was they who was being so helpful?

You say it's the character and personality of individuals that matters, and I agree with that wholeheartedly, so are you really suggesting that most cruisers who have spent a lifetime becoming financially very comfortable (Richie rich)have worse personalities and character compared with those who don't have as much?! I think that's crazy talk and is divisive and hateful. Why don't you stop trying to pass judgment on anyone and just leave it at "it's the personality and character of the individual" and leave the class warfare stuff to professional politicians desperate to divide us and thus get themselves reelected, then using their "connections" to turn themselves into one of the ULTRA Richie rich's? I understand their crooked motivation for encouraging class warfare but the rest of us really have no excuse.

[Cadence]

Maybe a distinction should be made between the rich and those that would be rich for ego purposes. Most of the truly rich, I have met, have looked like the average joe. They have no need to flaunt it. It may surprise some as who has offered assistance?

ON the flip side it may be surprising who says thank you and who doesn't?

[zeehag]

no one is better or worse---stop misinterpreting that which others have to say-- is how fake news spreads,.hahahahaha
just take what folks say as what it is--a report of what is seen. not ASSumed nor theorized.
what i have seen is richie rich has a different set of issues and focuses on those. the folks with less usually have contact with the individuals best prepared to deal with the immediate issues. richie generally calls a tow--has not the dink in water for use, and is essentially unaware of the avenues possible for assistance.
those of us with lower income and less to waste know where the assistants are located on the cheap as it were--richies help includes the gringo company owner of the business repairing their own boat.
long distance towing, you are on your own.
( but i know the guy.........)
the less monied souls know who the gringo business owner calls on to do the real work. different priorties.
in an anchorage--we all get together to rescue the "drag queens" of the anchorage as they fly by--- if not having a dinghy prepared to function immediately, via radio calling out the troops. as long a s dink is in water, the "mud wrestlers" are also assisted by everyone. even passing water taxis.
anchoring is an equalizer.
btw--i have lived on both sides of htis fence..but i always knew the best sources of ultimate assistance...which is not a tow boat.

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by Cadence

Maybe a distinction should be made between the rich and those that would be rich for ego purposes. Most of the truly rich, I have met, have looked like the average joe. They have no need to flaunt it. It may surprise some as who has offered assistance?

ON the flip side it may be surprising who says thank you and who doesn't?

I suppose we could make that distinction, but we could also make the distinction between the good hearted and hard working person who has little because accumulation of wealth or "things" has never been their priority or they've just had some bad luck, and the person who has little because he's simply lazy. But why make EITHER distinction? Why not just leave it at all of us simply privately resolving that whether we be rich or poor, WE are going to do our best to listen to and follow our own consciences when it comes to helping those in need and we are also NOT going to spend any time trying to keep track of how much or how little anyone else is giving and passing judgment on them? Trying to judge the extent of others generosity and what motivates them is a losers game because it's VERY difficult to know all of someone else's personal or financial circumstances and even if you manage to figure it out accurately once in a great while, what have you really gained other than wasting your own time and possibly making yourself bitter or envious?

[zeehag]

clarification--no one is good or bad except in the brain of the individual interpreting and assuming the hidden meanings in clear print.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

I suppose we could make that distinction, but we could also make the distinction between the good hearted and hard working person who has little because accumulation of wealth or "things" has never been their priority or they've just had some bad luck, and the person who has little because he's simply lazy. But why make EITHER distinction? Why not just leave it at all of us simply privately resolving that whether we be rich or poor, WE are going to do our best to listen to and follow our own consciences when it comes to helping those in need and we are also NOT going to spend any time trying to keep track of how much or how little anyone else is giving and passing judgment on them? Trying to judge the extent of others generosity and what motivates them is a losers game because it's VERY difficult to know all of someone else's personal or financial circumstances and even if you manage to figure it out accurately once in a great while, what have you really gained other than wasting your own time and possibly making yourself bitter or envious?

People make their own luck unless it is a physical or mental disability. I've made some good decisions and would be the first to say some bad. JMHO

[Mike OReilly]

It’s hard to know how to respond for fear of ruffling more feathers. In response to some comment on this thread I, and others, pointed out the growing body of human behavioural research into the effects of wealth on what we might call compassion or kindness towards others.

The findings, according to the researchers (not me), is that there appears to be a causal connection between wealth and lower levels of empathy. As virtually all of us here are wealthy by national standards, and very rich by global standards, this should give us all pause as we cruise around the area and the globe.

BTW, just b/c there is this relationship (which may not survive further research, although as I say, is not new and has been replicated in many studies), doesn’t mean all wealthy people are dick heads. Just like more men are rapists than women doesn’t mean all men are rapists.

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by Cadence

People make their own luck unless it is a physical or mental disability. I've made some good decisions and would be the first to say some bad. JMHO

I think that's generally true, but I have run across a few people who have worked very hard and done all the right things but the stars never seem to align for them, so they were not rewarded for their efforts anything close to most others who put in a similar effort in the same field of endeavor. On the other hand, I feel like I've been VERY fortunate in many areas. Yes, like lots of people, I've always been a very hard worker and am scrupulously honest with everyone I deal with and I know both of those are important, but even so I feel like several times in my life I've just happened to have been "in the right place at the right time" and it has benefited me and I'm not just talking about monetarily. My thought on the subject is that you have to work hard to increase the chances for good luck to smile upon you, but for some people, no matter how hard they work, it just never seems to happen.

For many years I was a Make A Wish, wish grantor and that experience really opened my eyes to some young kids who had some REALLY bad luck in their young lives. But I would have to say that, as a group, they were well above average on the happiness scale AND accomplishment scale considering their young ages. Almost all had the attitude that their life threatening illness was more of a minor inconvenience than any sort of reason to accomplish less than others. Very inspiring kids!

[alctel]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

It’s hard to know how to respond for fear of ruffling more feathers. In response to some comment on this thread I, and others, pointed out the growing body of human behavioural research into the effects of wealth on what we might call compassion or kindness towards others.

The findings, according to the researchers (not me), is that there appears to be a causal connection between wealth and lower levels of empathy. As virtually all of us here are wealthy by national standards, and very rich by global standards, this should give us all pause as we cruise around the area and the globe.

BTW, just b/c there is this relationship (which may not survive further research, although as I say, is not new and has been replicated in many studies), doesn’t mean all wealthy people are dick heads. Just like more men are rapists than women doesn’t mean all men are rapists.

I admire your tenacity Mike - but by now you should know that saying 'but look at all this extensive peer-reviewed research done over a long period of time' isn't going to work, at least around here.

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by zeehag

no one is better or worse---stop misinterpreting that which others have to say-- is how fake news spreads,.hahahahaha
just take what folks say as what it is--a report of what is seen. not ASSumed nor theorized.
what i have seen is richie rich has a different set of issues and focuses on those. the folks with less usually have contact with the individuals best prepared to deal with the immediate issues. richie generally calls a tow--has not the dink in water for use, and is essentially unaware of the avenues possible for assistance.
those of us with lower income and less to waste know where the assistants are located on the cheap as it were--richies help includes the gringo company owner of the business repairing their own boat.
long distance towing, you are on your own.
( but i know the guy.........)
the less monied souls know who the gringo business owner calls on to do the real work. different priorties.
in an anchorage--we all get together to rescue the "drag queens" of the anchorage as they fly by--- if not having a dinghy prepared to function immediately, via radio calling out the troops. as long a s dink is in water, the "mud wrestlers" are also assisted by everyone. even passing water taxis.
anchoring is an equalizer.
btw--i have lived on both sides of htis fence..but i always knew the best sources of ultimate assistance...which is not a tow boat.

You seem to think you have some sort of unique ability to judge other people and you make some very sweeping generalizations about "Richie rich" that you'd find out are often not very valid if you opened your eyes and mind a little bit. Of course I have no way of knowing for sure but I'd say that among the boat owners in the harbor where I keep my boat, my net worth is probably in the top 10% or so, so I guess you'd probably categorize me at least as a marginal "Richie rich." But with the exception of my parents paying half of my college expenses at a state school, I've earned/saved every cent of what I have myself and I know the value of a dollar just as well as anyone, including you. I also do more work on my boat myself than almost anybody else around, and that includes the jobs where your hands get dirty. I don't do it to try to impress anybody or because I can't afford to pay someone else to do it, but rather because it's just the way I was brought up and old habits die hard and I actually enjoy knowing how everything works in a hands on way and I would rather not spend money I don't have to. The fact that apparently I have a higher income than you doesn't mean I don't know who does the real work and how to contact them in my harbor. In many cases, in "my" harbor and nearby, they are an old friend of more than 20 years and if I don't know them personally, another friend of mine works with them or knows them well. I've had people try to make the same sort of assumptions about me that you seem inclined to make about people with a little more money than you so they felt justified in trying to charge me high prices as if I was a "Richie rich" and wouldn't know the difference or care. It doesn't happen often because almost everyone I deal with has some sort of connection to people who have known me a long time so I don't get introduced as a "Richie rich" yachtie, but rather as just another local yokel who happens to have a boat he needs something done on.
I'm truly sorry that you feel you can make such generalizations about such large groups of people because that sort of thing is what increasingly divides us and it has probably prevented you, without you even knowing it, from meeting and getting to know some very nice people. I don't think rich people are any nicer than poor people or vice versa, but I do know that folks who huddle in either camp making assumptions and categorizing the other group (us versus them attitude) without actually getting to know them are missing out on a whole lot of what mankind has to offer. Rather than looking at people with more money than yourself as a "Richie rich," maybe you ought to try approaching them just as if you'd approach someone who was nearly penniless, and you just might find out that Mr. Richie rich knows way more than you do about rebuilding your engine and he might have just the tool onboard his boat that you need to borrow just for a one time use and would be happy to come over and help you use it. Or you can keep making assumptions that he has no idea how to do anything for himself and the only tool he knows how to use is his credit card. That's just about as bad as wealthy folks who assume that all poor people are stupid or lazy and I have equally little patience for either brand of ignorance. Broaden your horizons and stop making ASSumptions about those around you based on what you perceive their financial situation is. You may well be wrong about both their financial situation AND the practical knowledge they are willing to share with you AND the goodness you find in their heart.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

I think that's generally true, but I have run across a few people who have worked very hard and done all the right things but the stars never seem to align for them, so they were not rewarded for their efforts anything close to most others who put in a similar effort in the same field of endeavor. On the other hand, I feel like I've been VERY fortunate in many areas. Yes, like lots of people, I've always been a very hard worker and am scrupulously honest with everyone I deal with and I know both of those are important, but even so I feel like several times in my life I've just happened to have been "in the right place at the right time" and it has benefited me and I'm not just talking about monetarily. My thought on the subject is that you have to work hard to increase the chances for good luck to smile upon you, but for some people, no matter how hard they work, it just never seems to happen.

For many years I was a Make A Wish, wish grantor and that experience really opened my eyes to some young kids who had some REALLY bad luck in their young lives. But I would have to say that, as a group, they were well above average on the happiness scale AND accomplishment scale considering their young ages. Almost all had the attitude that their life threatening illness was more of a minor inconvenience than any sort of reason to accomplish less than others. Very inspiring kids!

Happiness does always mean net worth. Not being destitute probably helps. I guess some have bad luck but some use it as a crutch and some from being disadvantaged over come it. How did we get to being phycologists. I though it was about boats?

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

It’s hard to know how to respond for fear of ruffling more feathers. In response to some comment on this thread I, and others, pointed out the growing body of human behavioural research into the effects of wealth on what we might call compassion or kindness towards others.

The findings, according to the researchers (not me), is that there appears to be a causal connection between wealth and lower levels of empathy. As virtually all of us here are wealthy by national standards, and very rich by global standards, this should give us all pause as we cruise around the area and the globe.

BTW, just b/c there is this relationship (which may not survive further research, although as I say, is not new and has been replicated in many studies), doesn’t mean all wealthy people are dick heads. Just like more men are rapists than women doesn’t mean all men are rapists.

I've met dickheads of all financial backgrounds too. The trouble with making the sort of generalization you are putting forward, is that it groups people together and passes judgment on them as a group. Once you've accepted that wealthier people generally aren't as nice or generous as poor people, that tends to color your first impressions of them and that can become self fulfilling so you end up seeing what you expect to see. You MAY be able to accurately assess someone's financial situation but it can be pretty deceiving, I've known some VERY wealthy people who you never in the world would guess had much at all, even when you get to know them quite well. Last year, while walking down the concourse at LaGuardia Airport, I happened to run into an old high school classmate who at last count owned 26 hotels and he was dressed in a "well worn" white T-shirt and black, also well worn slacks, could stand to lose about 50lbs, and probably looked to most people like a janitor on his day off. He's donated over a million dollars to a cancer center as just one example of his generosity and he's still the same person he was when I met him and all he owned was the lunch money his mother gave him that day. My point is that often it's pretty tough to tell just WHO is actually rich and who owes the bank more than they own, and even if you manage to somehow figure that one out(why bother?), you still don't know how they came by their money or the values they were taught when they were young, and those things can be WAY more important than merely the current size of their bank account. Yes, I've met what zeehag calls Richie rich's whose only skill was with a credit card paid for by their trust fund or daddy, but I think it's dangerous to generalize about any group of people. Much better to just approach everyone the same and not pay too much attention to whether they are rich or poor and certainly don't start making judgments about how nice or generous or lazy or helpful or..... you expect them to be because you THINK they are rich or poor.

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by rognvald

Very well said, JT! Good luck and safe sailing.

I very much agree.

I do think there is one psychological difference in how the middle class apply charity as compared to the less wealthy.

The less wealthy will make it a simple gift (no strings attached) and often with the 'pay it forward' "unconditional" mantra.

Those who have slowly built up a considerable wealth will instead 'invest' their charitable donations to empower individuals or communities to becoming self sufficient. They look more at the big picture and expect more effort and return... instead of a simple gift.

I guess that could be seen as having 'less empathy'...