Why are more men into sailing than women?

[Joh.Ghurt]

Terrapin, why did you put up with someone who screams at you? That sounds like there were a lot of other problems totally unrelated to sailing. Be happy you had the chance to correct this error of judgment.

Sailing is hard on bad relationships, it makes them fall apart a lot quicker. Successful sailors are usually quite reasonable. That's why I often find it a good sign in a business-partner or client, if he's serious about sailing too.

[Joh.Ghurt]

Originally Posted by Idlegreg

[...], aggression and violence [...]

Do you really believe those are positive attributes for sailors? Faced with inclement wind and waves, people usually become humble rather quickly and rationality and cooperation in the crew prevails. Or we read about them in the news.

[Idlegreg]

Originally Posted by Joh.Ghurt

Do you really believe those are positive attributes for sailors? Faced with inclement wind and waves, people usually become humble rather quickly and rationality and cooperation in the crew prevails. Or we read about them in the news.

Sorry if it sounded like that, I did not mean to say aggression and violence are desirable attributes for sailing.

I was just challenging the idea that women are driven by hormones and men are not, so I gave an example of behaviour in men that I think is affected by their hormones. In giving that example I was not assigning merit to aggression or violence.

[Idlegreg]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

It may seem that way to you, and you may be right. However, there is a widely accepted school of thought that thinks men are easily led by the one eyed snake.

You put this more succinctly than I managed :-)

[KelseyB]

I read the first two pages of this thread and not the last two so forgive me if I missed a development here in this response.

First off, I wanted to provide my opinion as a 21-year-old woman who's been sailing since I was 4 and spent the last year restoring a steel boat from basically nothing and am currently writing from it in Florida, 1000 miles from where I started. Seems like I ought to contribute considering the vast majority of people trying to answer this question seem to be men.

None of this is meant to be an attack on men or male sailors in general or anyone specific here so, if you take it as one, perhaps that requires some self-reflecting. This is simply a recounting of my own experiences.

I was a skipper and varsity captain of my high school racing team for 4 years. When parents wanted to reach out to the captain of the team for questions, 9 times out of 10 they contacted my (male) crew, who would then just forward it to me. I had multiple clarifying conversations with parents that I was, in fact, the captain; sometimes they'd say "but I want to speak to a skipper not a crew," and I'd clarify again that, yes, I'm who they want to talk to.

Previous posts on this thread have commented that sailing requires being handy, and a healthy amount of mechanical and technical knowledge. When I was restoring my boat, I found myself in a hardware store 5 times a day some days. It's unbelievable what the staff would sometimes think I needed help with, how they'd talk down to me, how they'd recommend things to me that didn't even make sense, how they'd try to get me to buy something more expensive that I obviously didn't need. And often how they were just plain wrong, and would spend a ridiculous amount of energy trying to convince me that they were right. Staff trying to convince me that I needed such and such type of paint, after I patiently explained to them that, no, that paint would react with the steel of my boat. That I needed these particular screws after I said that, no, they needed to be stainless for a marine environment. Even being on the phone with distributors, having a female voice is an invitation to get scammed. I felt like I needed to bring a 5-page essay and a list of cited sources to defend the knowledge that I had about MY boat and MY project to employees who had never even set foot on a boat in their lives.

While under way on the trip I'm currently on, I've seen it. I can't even count the number of times I've pulled into a slip and had the backhanded "nice docking" comment. What, did you expect it wouldn't be? Just recently I had my boyfriend come sail with me for a week. This is not his boat, nor does he know how to sail; I'm the one teaching him. And yet when we gave both of our phone numbers to a marina office to call when their electrician came back (we were having a battery problem)- who did they call first? Him, the one who didn't own the boat and didn't even know how to explain the problem because he's still learning. He just handed the phone to me. When we'd come into slips, me driving and him on the bow ready to throw a line, we got stares. We even got a comment of "ah good man, crazy you trust her to drive the thing." He laughed out loud and said it was my boat, and that I'd be the crazy one to let him dock it.

If you ask any woman sailor, it's no mystery why there aren't more of us. Sports and activities that are physical, that require mechanical and technical knowledge, that are rugged, that require critical thinking and fast decision-making, have been exclusionary towards women for centuries. It has nothing to do with what women are physically and mentally capable of- I actually recently read a passage in a book about singlehanded sailing, written by a man, that stated that he personally believed that women might be more capable of singlehanded sailing because they are "more capable of taking care of themselves and staying sane." Personally I don't believe either gender is more or less capable, I believe we're equally capable, I just thought it was an interesting point. The reason that there are not more women in sailing is because women have been pushed out of the spaces that give them the knowledge and the confidence to sail at every turn, for centuries, and it's discouraging and it's exhausting. If it has not happened to you, it's difficult to fathom the type of scrutiny you sometimes feel as a woman simply walking into a hardware store. I am constantly put in the hot seat and forced to defend the skills that I have been building for my entire life to men who have been at it for only a few years. I am always defending myself, forced to make it clear that I do, in fact, know what I'm doing, when my boyfriend was just assumed to know what he was doing simply for the fact that he was on a boat. I feel like I have to carry a printed-out resume everywhere I go just so people will maybe trust that I'm not an idiot. For a lot of women, it's easier to give up. It's no fun trying to stay afloat in a community that is often expecting you to sink. It makes sailing less enjoyable for women, when we are often forced to carry a larger burden of proof for our abilities and our intelligence and rarely given the benefit of the doubt that is often afforded to men.

But, all that being said, I wouldn't still be a sailor if I didn't believe there was something amazing about the sailing community and if I didn't believe that it was rapidly changing for the better. And luckily for me, I'm motivated by spite and only push myself harder when it seems that people think I can't do something. But not everyone is like that, which is why so many women get discouraged. And if you're still unconvinced that sailing has, for centuries, been exclusionary towards women and that this change for the better is only a recent development, go watch "Maiden," the documentary about the first all-women crew for the Whitbread, and see what type of crap they dealt with only 40 years ago.

[Rob_P]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

It may seem that way to you, and you may be right. However, there is a widely accepted school of thought that thinks men are easily led by the one eyed snake.

The snake rarely changes it's tune or need. Yes it drives men to find mates, permanent or otherwise, but it's a one note song that most men can get beyond without half trying. If we couldn't there wouldn't be things called "boats" or "crew."

Women, on the other hand, have to deal with a constant new flood of different hormones, on a regular basis, week after week after week, for years starting when they're young teens. This is strongest when they're in their prime reproductive years. That has to mess with their minds, desires, and outlook. Not to mention influencing their careers and life shaping choices.

For most it comes down to what their hormones are telling them. Go to far away places and be alone; or stay home, find a mate, reproduce in a safe environment, and raise their offspring as best they can while their mate brings home the mammoth every night.

Social pressures have a lot of influence too, but it begins way back in time and is certainly based in part on the differences in hormones and physical attributes.

I also note I once read a book where the author brought this up by saying that (paraphrased) few craftsmen would employ women as journeymen/tradesmen because few could afford to teach/house/feed anyone who wouldn't/couldn't dedicate their lives to the trade. Most women didn't make that cut because a lot of their lives have to be dedicated to procreating and raising a family. This excluded them because the effort of giving them a lifetime of skills for them to use for only a few years wasn't economically sound. The result is that social "roles" were created for each of the sexes.

Some can cross over. Of those, few do. They are the exception because they are exceptional.

[Tomodore]

On our boat it was my wife that suggested we cruise full time, that was 10 years ago and it is still great for both of us. There are certainly women who don’t look forward to time afloat but also a big factor is the attitude and comfort of a well found and competently run vessel. We have seen many instances where the male says my wife doesn’t like sailing only to find out that she loves sailing just not with him. Our first time out on our own 30 years ago we didn’t raise the sails for 2 days till we were comfortable with the boat. Take it slow and take it together has worked for us.

[DMF Sailing]

Originally Posted by Tomodore

We have seen many instances where the male says my wife doesn’t like sailing only to find out that she loves sailing just not with him.

^ This.

(btw: Testosterone doesn't cause aggression; it's the other way around. Kind of like endorphins are produced as a reaction to stress or discomfort, or dopamine is produced as a reaction to a pleasurable sensation, testosterone is produced in a male as a result of aggression. Which is why the alpha exults and the defeated feels, well, defeated. That's testosterone. The relevant issue is that primates are rewarded by behavior that produces testosterone.)

[Pegu Club]

Why is there a made up necessity that men and women should have identical pursuits, in identical numbers?

Why at present do more women knit than men?

Why at present in America do more women attend college than men?

Fair winds,

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Pegu Club

Why at present in America do more women attend college than men?

Fair winds,

Because they don't play American Football or Basketball.. they study..

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by KelseyB

...I was a skipper and varsity captain of my high school racing team for 4 years. When parents wanted to reach out to the captain of the team for questions, 9 times out of 10 they contacted my (male) crew, who would then just forward it to me. I had multiple clarifying conversations with parents that I was, in fact, the captain; sometimes they'd say "but I want to speak to a skipper not a crew," and I'd clarify again that, yes, I'm who they want to talk to.

Thanks for this Kelsey. Certainly rings true in my experience.

This kind of sexism swings both ways. As a male I'm often on the receiving end of chiding when my partner takes the lead on a boat chore or manoeuvre. More often than not she is on the helm in close quarters, and she's in charge of the docking. She's just better at it than I am. But boy... you can bet I get the gentle ribbing from my male dock mates once the lines are tied off.

We also try and share most tasks. This includes both underway and maintenance/repair projects. Here my partner is often the target of positive remarks from "the boys," while I rarely rank a mention. When she climbs the mast or changes the oil filter it's all, "Way to go! Great Job!" When I do the very same task it's "Eh, whatever..." Seems to me she gets accolades for just showing up, whereas I gotta really shine.

I do think that most of this stuff is done out of a sense of lightness or fun. But there are underlying assumptions that spring from stereotypes that should be recognized as well.

[Joh.Ghurt]

Originally Posted by KelseyB

It's unbelievable what the staff would sometimes think I needed help with, how they'd talk down to me, how they'd recommend things to me that didn't even make sense, how they'd try to get me to buy something more expensive that I obviously didn't need.

You live under the illusion, that you get this kind of service because you're a woman. Time to wake up! Everyone gets shitty service in hardware stores and are talked down at by the troglodytes populating them. But if they try to sell me the wrong thinner for the paint because they too lazy to reach for the correct can, I can't feel myself oppressed by the whatever-archy. Same case when they insist the nickel-plated fasteners are just as good as stainless ones or it's perfectly ok to use silicone containing acid on aluminium frames.

Originally Posted by KelseyB

I can't even count the number of times I've pulled into a slip and had the backhanded "nice docking" comment. What, did you expect it wouldn't be?

Just take the compliment as as it was given. No, it's not an insult, it might just be a compliment. And given the docking dramas I've seen in marinas - mostly by men because those were the majority of not so good skippers - they were expecting Crash - Boom - Bang - Drama. Men get the nice docking compliment too.

As to why more bad docking are done by men in my experience is simply due to positive selection. Women with their own boat usually made more effort that the average man with a boat to get there, so there's a real chance the woman is more competent. There simply aren't that many check-book-skipper-ladies. This is mostly a male class. And those are the most entertaining ones for pier-drama.

Originally Posted by KelseyB

Sports and activities that are physical, that require mechanical and technical knowledge, that are rugged, that require critical thinking and fast decision-making, have been exclusionary towards women for centuries.

That's just a cheap excuse for women not being able to perform physically at the same level as men. That's why women's classes were created and I can think of no (adult) sport where women outperform men overall. In some, like equestrian dressage they seem to be equal. This is why I find those transgender college athletes competing in woman competitions and claiming all the top spots so disgusting.

If you are interested how this can be solved, you might want to check the Volvo Ocean race 2018 or 19, not sured: The teams had a limited amount of heads and the more Watts of muscle power you could bring to the winches the bigger your advantage. Women were a bad choice for the overall performance of the team except for very few positions (like skipper, navigator or tactician). In the end, to get more women on board, they allowed extra heads if some or all of them were woman. This was a very reasonable approach to deal with a simple fact of life.

Originally Posted by KelseyB

Personally I don't believe either gender is more or less capable, I believe we're equally capable,

Same here. Cruising isn't extreme sports and most middle aged sailor-women are physically in a lot better shape than most over 65 male sailors.

Originally Posted by KelseyB

The reason that there are not more women in sailing is because women have been pushed out of the spaces that give them the knowledge and the confidence to sail at every turn, for centuries,

Going by this logic, people from landlocked countries should suffer from the same handicap. Well, they don't. The tradition of centuries past have no real impact on what happens today on an individual level. I think you're just looking for victim points. If women want to sail, they can just as much as men. And don't forget, most men never get closer to this dream than posting on forums and browsing yachtworld. But they don't blame it on Nelson having no female gunners.

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by Chotu

......................


I find it crazy that gen z wants to force a gender neutral life on everyone. It’s hard to force men into being daycare workers and hard to force women into being into sailing or any number of other things.

Hormones are real. Hormones do influence our thought processes and feelings. There ARE differences between men and women. ......................
...................................


Of course there are exceptions to every generalization, but estrogen is basically why women aren’t as into boats or other toys like these.

There is a great difference between "...forc(ing) a gender neutral life on everyone" and encouraging the elimination of discrimination simply because other people are different.


It's like Dr. Suess. The idiotic "cancel culture" meme would have you believe "somebody" coerced the publishers and STOPPED the publication, when the REALITY is that the publishers themselves CHOSE to stop publishing offensive material. No one MADE them stop.

[Tayana42]

KelseyB, thank you for this open firsthand response. It is clear that thousands of years of men dominating women, owning them, trading their daughters for land or peace, not allowing them to have access to weapons or education or jobs has a lasting impact on the roles and positions of women in society. Isn’t it amazing how recently women were not allowed to vote? Is there any surprise that social attitudes take a long time to change particularly when so many men are still blaming the inequality on women’s hormones instead of accepting that the blame should be on the men that controlled or limited women for so long and in many ways still do. Yes things are getting better but there is still a long way to go. Equal rights, equal pay, equal access are still aspirations for most women.

[Narfi]

Originally Posted by Pegu Club

Why is there a made up necessity that men and women should have identical pursuits, in identical numbers?

Why at present do more women knit than men?

Why at present in America do more women attend college than men?

Because they grow up.(faster? at all?)

I won't argue the correlation between knitting or attending university and maturity, however they make good representations of a tangible trend.

You can argue nature or nurture or culture, but it would appear to the untrained idiot(myself) that men are more likely to dump time and money into hobbies and more 'childish' endeavors, while women are likely to have a more 'responsible' or 'mature' mindset towards the budgeting of both time and resources, esp. if/when there is even the potential for children being involved.

Simplified, men tend to be more selfish than women and very broadly speaking, 'sailing' is at its core a selfish endeavor.