Why are more men into sailing than women?

[JPA Cate]

Originally Posted by Rob_P

As an amateur observer of human nature, that hormone thing seems to drive women a lot stronger than it does for men.

It may seem that way to you, and you may be right. However, there is a widely accepted school of thought that thinks men are easily led by the one eyed snake.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

It may seem that way to you, and you may be right. However, there is a widely accepted school of thought that thinks men are easily led by the one eyed snake.

AKA.. His brains are the size of his balls..

[JPA Cate]

Originally Posted by Joh.Ghurt

Why do you feel that way? In my experience, whenever I have someone new to sailing on board I put her or him on the wheel once we're under way. It really doesn't matter how timid or assertive they are. Actually it does, the timid ones usually get it quicker how to deal with waves and wind. Sisterhood.

In this case, you change the base of the relationship. If she signed up for a white picket-fence, keeping up with the Jones, air-conditioning, dish-washer and toilets that don't need an lesson to use, her enthusiasm might be extremely limited to become a sea-gypsy. That's why those plans end very often in a divorce or a sad lonely boat in a marina. When the men then look for their next partner on the base to go sailing, those partnerships seem to be more stable. Agreed.

Although this is what the yachting industry tries to sell, I doubt it'll ever work. It just produces overpriced gin-palaces clogging marinas. Quite so. Nor would I trust marketers to want the best for the folks involved, but rather to make bucks for themselves.

I find it sad you liken women to dogs that just need to be taught tricks and not give them the agency to decide on their own whether they want something or not. Most women don't want to go sailing if it means forgoing comforts they like more for the sake of being on a boat. Just accept it and don't try to force women into a role they don't want. I must have failed to express myself well. In the context, what I was getting at was that I think older women can come to enjoy sailing, if encouraged to do so. Often they (and I know quite a few) like many aspects of cruising, even if those are somewhat different from what most pleases their partners.
Men have a choice whether to simply accept it--lots of positive value in that--or to open the subject with their partner and she what she says. I'm more pro-communication than someone wanting to force people who don't want to to go sailing. Oh, yeah, and I do understand that even that may be pushing someone where they don't want to go. Okay with me to forward my values where possible.

Be happy instead that you got the chance and found something in sailing that enriches your life without forcing it on others. There are already far too many missionaries in this world trying force everyone to submit to their cause.
Yup, I'm definitely the missionary who wants to support the ones who come along who want to do it. Guilty as charged! And, yes, I feel quite appreciative that I have been so fortunate as to have had the life I've had.

Cheers,

Ann

[Mike OReilly]

The suggestion that women are not as interested in sailing due to their over active hormones is simply ridiculous. Homo Sapiens males and females are different, but our overlap of capabilities and traits are far greater than our divergences. The difference in participation is far more likely a product of culture and historical societal influences than biology or evolution (although they certainly play a part).

This is the case for many other previously male -- or female -- dominated sectors. Through no small effort we can shift social norms. Progress is constantly being made so that today it's perfectly normal to have a stay-at-home father or a civil engineer mother. So too in the sailing world where we can have a female captain and a male first mate (or "admiral" as some like to say).

But change takes time, and unlike old soldiers, do fade away. The sailing world is still a male-dominated space, but it is changing. Even in the 20 years I've been involved I've observed a shift.

And as I said, in the cruising world where most boat carry couples, there is little difference made -- at least this has been true in the places I've (we've) travelled by little boat.

[DMF Sailing]

I've been on so many boats where the women are the ones who are into sailing.

I must be doing something wrong.

(disclaimer: none of these people are my girlfriends or relatives; nor are they paid actors...)

[LittleWing77]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

I'd be interested to hear from some of the other women on the forum. I don't think most of the guys can work this one out without female input.

Ann

My only reply, Ann, is that I am gobsmacked by the disproportionately sexist replies - the attribution of women's differences being due to hormones is just ignorant and borderline misogynistic.

Lake Effect was right: A lot of women's alienation from sailing is lack of empowerment, first and foremost. Lack of time and money would be second.

That's all that's fit to print from this quarter.
LittleWing77

[Joh.Ghurt]

DMF,

true there are women sailing. But if you made the same collage of the number of men sailing under similar conditions, you wouldn't be able to distinguish the faces, so small the pictures would be.

In my experience, the best older candidates for sailing are women who want to do something again and who aren't tied down by house and children any more. If they have that gypsy-gene in their blood, they might discover something they truly enjoy. And there's no reason at all, why they couldn't learn what's necessary to be a successful sailor.

Actually, I'm currently looking for a boat for a lady, who decided the sea is her life. She's working on the financing and her certifications. No, she'll never be a diesel mechanic nor an electrician, but she'll become a good enough to sail her future boat safely and cruise in the areas of her choice. She approaches things a little from the cautious side, which seem a bit slower in the beginning, but the results work.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by LittleWing77

My only reply, Ann, is that I am gobsmacked by the disproportionately sexist replies - the attribution of women's differences being due to hormones is just ignorant and borderline misogynistic.

Lake Effect was right: A lot of women's alienation from sailing is lack of empowerment, first and foremost. Lack of time and money would be second.

That's all that's fit to print from this quarter.
LittleWing77

I hope people didn’t misunderstand my response. I said hormones in the very beginning. But I did not say that women’s hormones make them somehow inferior. I am saying that we both have different sets of hormones. And they generally make for some differences between the sexes.

We are NOT the same. We do not have the same physical or mental makeup. We are different. And that’s great!

However, if you go look at the general population of women, you are not going to find as many of them genuinely interested in any of these things we are talking about. Boats, motorcycles, airplanes, computers, intricate things that take a lot of fussing around. Generally, this does not seem to be enjoyable to the majority of women. Somehow, men do enjoy things that take a lot of intricate fussing around. This is not anything negative. This is just a simple characteristic of our sex hormones

And of course, as I said in my earlier post, plenty of people do buck the general trend. Littlewing here is an expert. Someone we take advice from. Not only interested in sailing, but a master of it. But we can only really talk in generalities here.

There are other activities that women are mostly drawn to. Where are you find almost no men. It would be the same exact situation there. Hormones have something to do with the fact that most men do not work in daycare centers. We just don’t like it. It doesn’t go with our brains and hormones. Of course a couple do, but not many.

There are other activities that women are mostly drawn to. Where are you find almost no men. It would be the same exact situation there. Hormones have something to do with the fact that most men do not work in daycare centers. We just don’t like it. It doesn’t go with our brains and hormones. Of course a couple do, but not many. I would like to stress that nothing I’m saying has anything to do with putting anyone down. These are simply observations from a lifetime of dealing with both genders. And I have to say, I know a lot more women that I know men. LOL. So, I know a little bit more about women than guys. The only way I know about guys because I am one. The only way I know about guys because I am one. Otherwise, I don’t really hang around with them.

So, Littlewing, I hope you didn’t take offense at my post. I feel bad because I look above and see that you are referring to hormones. I am the one that brought that up. But I hope the context and meeting that I’m using it as well understood. I am trying to stress that there are differences between the sexes. And we do have different tastes.

[Montanan]

Because there are always more Captains than Admirals.

[jimbunyard]

Originally Posted by Emoyeni

Ladies and gentlemen, I'd be curious to read your thoughts regarding this short and simple question!

I'd like to see the data supporting such an overtly sexist assumption.

I'm guessing, unless you're applying a different definition of 'into' than is generally used, the numbers aren't as far apart as you seem to believe...

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Chotu

...However, if you go look at the general population of women, you are not going to find as many of them genuinely interested in any of these things we are talking about. Boats, motorcycles, airplanes, computers, intricate things that take a lot of fussing around. Generally, this does not seem to be enjoyable to the majority of women. Somehow, men do enjoy things that take a lot of intricate fussing around. This is not anything negative. This is just a simple characteristic of our sex hormones
...
There are other activities that women are mostly drawn to. Where are you find almost no men. It would be the same exact situation there. Hormones have something to do with the fact that most men do not work in daycare centers. We just don’t like it.

Not many would dispute your observations Chotu. The OP's question is predicated on this fact. The question is: Why?

I will take your hormone reference to mean the more broad set of genetic differences between males and females. Hormones are just a set of chemical messengers that manage a whole range of bodily functions, only a small subset is related to sex differences.

As I said, there are clear differences between males and females in our species, but research shows there is far more commonality than divergence. This extends over the whole range of physical, mental and emotional measures. This is not so with all species, but with Homo sapiens, by most measures, we have far more in common that we are different.

That's not to say we aren't different, just that the differences at the population level are found at the leading or trailing ends of the respective sex curves. Most of us fall in the overlap.

In contrast, the differences of how men and women are socialized and conditioned by culture seem vastly greater. Our societies place all manner of paths and barriers for both sexes which help shape outcomes. One of these is the path to sailing and cruising.

The difference in participation is far more likely a product of culture and historical societal influences than biology or evolution (although they certainly play a part).

[boatman61]

I can remember a trip I did from Portsmouth to Olhau.. an assisted delivery with the new owner and his wife as crew..
The whole trip the Portuguese owner kept his wife below except on his watch dealing with the galley work etc.. she was a Brit/German extraction and I could see she wanted a go.
On the last day between Portimao and the entrance to Faro/Olhau when we picked up a nice breeze as we passed Albufeira, we were all up top and I asked her if she'd like a go on the helm.. she leapt up before he could say anything and took the wheel..
At first she was all over the place chasing the compass but after I told her to get on course then pick something to aim for.. a cloud, a distant lighthouse, whatever and just glance down every 10 mins or so to check for small adjustments and if needed pick a new target she settled down and helmed better than her husband.. he was not overly pleased..

[jimbunyard]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

...The difference in participation is far more likely a product of culture and historical societal influences than biology or evolution (although they certainly play a part).

Coincidentally, I've been reading some on this lately, and would like to add that the lack of sexual dimorphism among humans strongly supports this conclusion.

[Terrapin]

I think time and money explain a lot of it. Men have more of both. A man works at his job, comes home and sits in front of the TV while his wife picks up the children from school after her full day of gainful employment (for which she makes 75-80 cents for every dollar he makes), brings them home and starts them on homework, puts together dinner from ingredients that she made sure were in the kitchen, cooks, serves, cleans up afterward, runs a load or two of laundry which she folds and puts away and lays out the kids' lunches for the next day along with permission slips, soccer shoes, etc. She helps with homework, mediates squabbles, walks the dog and cleans the litter box. Her husband is watching TV or playing video games. And, if you read Reddit, probably complaining bitterly about being expected to put the baby back to sleep after he woke her up yelling at his games.

I raced Lightnings in college -- OK, I crewed -- and as an adult had a Coronado 23 sailboat that was good for tooling around in the Pacific Northwest, overnights and afternoon sails. I read "The Dove" and decided I wanted to sail around the world. I met and married a man who said he had the same dream. And then my husband and I retired and sold our house and everything we owned that wouldn't fit on our 40 foot sailboat . . . it was awful. He believed that it was HIS boat, not ours (we found it, decided to buy it and I paid for it) and insisted upon making all of the decisions. ALL of the decisions -- about what dishes we used, how we stored our food, the cabin cushions, the anchor and chain, how to secure the dinghy and what dinghy we bough -- everything. My input was neither sought nor accepted. Any time I wanted to get my hands dirty in boat projects, he'd throw a fit. There were a lot of things I didn't know how to do, but it was really hard to learn while he was screaming at me I was too incompetent to ever learn. I'm not saying all men are like that, but I met quite a few who were when we were out there cruising. When I did learn something well -- navigation, for example -- he wouldn't listen to me. Ran aground several times in his efforts to prove that I wasn't the boss of him, and he wasn't going to follow my directions just because I was the one reading the chart while he was manfully steering the boat.

We made it from the Chesapeake to Florida on the ICW, and then Hurricane Irma happened. Ya know what? I really don't like being in a small enclosed space with a raging bully. I left with what I could carry. Next time I'll buy my own boat and do it by myself or with another woman. My best friend and I went scuba diving all over Washington State and we were able to work together, figure things out and have a good time doing it. Wasn't like that with any of the men I sailed with, even when the boat was mine. Perhaps I need a better class of men.

[Idlegreg]

Originally Posted by Rob_P

As an amateur observer of human nature, that hormone thing seems to drive women a lot stronger than it does for men.

I am not sure of that - in my case, when I get in a room with other men, I find I am competing with them in so many small ways (I think it is lucky I am not really one for fighting, meaning nearly all the competition is friendly).

Men do seem to be overrepresented when it comes to overt competition, aggression and violence and I have an idea that is to quite a large extent hormone driven so we are very significantly affected by our hormones.

So I do think that the differences are partly driven by hormones and genetics but those effects are very much mixed up with social forces - which is inevitable really as our social behaviour stems from our history – nature and nurture are inextricably linked and feed into each other.

But it should be remembered that the very essence of humanity is that we have changed and developed over our time on this planet. Our having formed peaceful social groups much larger than immediate competitive family units is what has led to many of the advances that enhance our lives (building sailing boats?). So we should not attempt to imitate our inherited ape culture just because that is where we came from. I say don’t be scared of future change (in this case at least – there are of course changes I hate, being a grumpy old man). Even if many more men than women show an interest in sailing today we would do well to allow anyone with an interest to join in without restrictions. There is plenty of evidence that women can be highly competent sailors and as more join in then more may want to join in - no harm in that.

Any of us who feel that sailing is good for the soul should help and encourage anyone who wants to join in – no reason to be imprisoned by our past.