When would you not use a spinnaker

[trepanger]

I sail a Catalina 25 with asymmetrical cruising Spinnaker I primarily used it in lite wind sailing conditions last summer one day with the Wind at 18 knots gusting to 25 I finally had enough nerve to deploy the Spinnaker with no Mainsail up GPS said I was doing eight knots on a broad reach GPS said max speed of 15 I find that hard to believe but it's possible. So if I'm going downwind at 8 and the winds 18 I'm really being pushed by a 10 knot wind which doesn't seem like much though it is intimidating with the Whitecaps Breaking All Around my question is to someone with a similar boat how much wind have you used a spinnaker in or max wind speed you would use it in

[Stumble]

For GPS speed peak speed is an incredibly inaccurate measure. If you pull the log data from the GPS what you will often find is one or two blips where speed pops above the average for one update cycle (on a 60hz GPS the peak speed will be for 1/60th of a second). What's happening is that the position report jumps from one side of the accuracy circle to the far side, in the direction of travel. So it's appears you traveled both actually, and virtually thus leading to a huge peak speed. At a minimum you need to find the 1second or 100m average.

Fwiw my 'peak' GPS speed is around 37kn, when I normalized that into my GPS over 100m it came down to 17kn (obviously a very fast boat anyway).


As for your spinnaker question... it just depends. First, you really need the main up while flying the spin. If nothing else you can tuck the spin behind the main to depower it and help get it down.

As for wind speed with a spin... I have put a spin up in 40kn constant. But this was a fully crewed race boat with a spin designed for that wind speed. I would not recommend it for most people or boats. For cruising I tend to think of 15kn as the upper hand for most people putting up a spin, and planning to drop it no mater what around 20kn of breeze true. The additional speed and downwind angle just isn't worth the risk to equipment.

A highly skilled race crew with gear designed for it... I don't think there is an upper limit. Just whatever the heaviest, smallest spin is designed to fly it. If you had a 80kn chicken kite, I would put it up in 80kn...

[Tetepare]

As I understand what Stumble said it depends on the spin, the boat, and the crew. Lots of it is crew. But I've seen spins blown out by too much wind, blow like confetti.

And what if you broach? Then you could have a big problem.

There's also the recovery. In high winds it's a lot harder, and higher probability of destroying the spin- particularly if the crew can't recover it before it hits the water.

[Suijin]

Perfectly reasonable to hit 15 with your kite up in 20 knots during a surf down a wave.

As to how much wind is too much wind, there's too many factors to make a hard and fast rule. Type of boat, size and heaviness of the kite, how many crew, how experienced the crew is, etc. Like Stumble I've flown a kite during racing in conditions that I'd never consider while cruising or when single-handed.

I agree that flying a kite without the main up is a risky proposition, depending on the size and shape of your assym. You're generally going to have less control.

I will say that once you broach with that kite or less likely with an asym but still possible and equally exciting, shrimp it, your threshold for flying it in stronger winds might get chopped down a few notches.

[Stumble]

Originally Posted by Tetepare

As I understand what Stumble said it depends on the spin, the boat, and the crew. Lots of it is crew. But I've seen spins blown out by too much wind, blow like confetti.

And what if you broach? Then you could have a big problem.

There's also the recovery. In high winds it's a lot harder, and higher probability of destroying the spin- particularly if the crew can't recover it before it hits the water.

Like all sails, spinnakers have a rated wind speed. A light air spin may be designed for 1-15kn apparent, while a heavy may be good for 10-20. A seriously heavy air spin, often called a chicken kite may be good up to 40kn or even more. The rating is a function of the cut, and the size, and the weight of the material. A light air spin can very easily get blown to ribbons in wind speed past it's design strength. So it is very much a per sail issue.

Crew skill is also a necessary component. In high winds if something goes wrong you better have the ability to deal with it. On the big boat we had a plan for heavy air jibes that started with 'intentionally broach the boat.' You simply don't do that with less than skilled crew, or when less than fully crewed. So you keep the spin in the bag when it gets to those conditions, on most boats the speed differential at high wind speeds isn't that great anyway.

Once you are close to hull speed thru the water, adding a spin isn't going to help much unless you are on a planing boat. You just dig a deeper hole and don't go much faster.

[chris mac]

On a Catalina 25,at 18 knots, I would think you would have the main reefed, and maybe a third of a jib out and hitting hull speed.
A buddy at my marina has one(no spinaker though) and it would hit hull speed well before 18 knots apparent.
I'm guessing your spin is pretty light weight, and the c25 is fairly tender. I would be hesitant to fly it past about 10 knots. After that you can hit same speeds easier and safer with white sails.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by chris mac

On a Catalina 25,at 18 knots, I would think you would have the main reefed, and maybe a third of a jib out and hitting hull speed.
A buddy at my marina has one(no spinaker though) and it would hit hull speed well before 18 knots apparent.
I'm guessing your spin is pretty light weight, and the c25 is fairly tender. I would be hesitant to fly it past about 10 knots. After that you can hit same speeds easier and safer with white sails.

I would think he would be fine with the main not reefed and flying a spinnaker in 18 knots or so. He can always head DDW if he gets into trouble

In the 2004 Nationals, we raced Nacra F-17 Beach Catamarans (Inter 17 then) in 18-20 knots. This was buoy racing in Pensacola Bay

At that time, the the boat was rigged for single handers with main and spinnaker only. There are no reef points on the main

We flew the spinnakers and no one dropped out or DNF'd that I remember. I believe we did four races that day with maybe one delay due to wind speed exceeding race limits.

These boats weigh about 300 lbs

[chris mac]

Originally Posted by thomm225

I would think he would be fine with the main not reefed and flying a spinnaker in 18 knots or so. He can always head DDW if he gets into trouble

In the 2004 Nationals, we raced Nacra F-17 Beach Catamarans (Inter 17 then) in 18-20 knots. This was buoy racing in Pensacola Bay

At that time, the the boat was rigged for single handers with main and spinnaker only. There are no reef points on the main

We flew the spinnakers and no one dropped out or DNF'd that I remember. I believe we did four races that day with maybe one delay due to wind speed exceeding race limits.

These boats weigh about 300 lbs

While I respect you experience with beach cats, and would love to sail one with you, catalina 25 is a different beast.
At those wind speeds, a spin isn't going to add much if any speed, and will be much harder to deal with. No gain with more risk, doesn't appeal to me:-)

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by chris mac

While I respect you experience with beach cats, and would love to sail one with you, catalina 25 is a different beast.
At those wind speeds, a spin isn't going to add much if any speed, and will be much harder to deal with. No gain with more risk, doesn't appeal to me:-)

Yeah, the Catalina 25 should be much easier to handle in 18 knots than a 300 lb 17'-18' Beach cat with spinnaker in the same wind. (being sailed single handed)

You should be able to push the boat passed hull speed with the spinnaker though even in just 18 knots.

I got caught in 30 mph winds, maybe 28 knots or so, with my Bristol 27 and it sailed between 6-7.3 knots for around 4 hours with one reef in the main and full jib. (the furler was jammed so I just left it) The hull speed is 5.9 or so.

Luckily the wind increased no more and I was able to reach my downwind destination much quicker

As far as how much wind to fly the spinnaker with a Catalina 25, that would probably be somewhere in the high teens to low 20's depending on seastate, skipper and crew experience etc

[chris mac]

I guess we will disagree on this. Which is good, it gives the op differing views. Yours from racing, mine from comfort.

[barnakiel]

When it is very windy, I prefer to have the main up. Otherwise dousing the spinnaker can become a nightmare.

If you are skilled, 25kts is OK under the spinnaker, esp a light and responsive boat that will plane.

b.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by chris mac

I guess we will disagree on this. Which is good, it gives the op differing views. Yours from racing, mine from comfort.

Ok.

We did have the early version of the sock on the spinnaker pole for quick take down. You can see the yellow spinnaker halyard at the front of the sock/pole (in photo) and it also goes to the back of the tramp thru a bullet block there after coming back down from the mast then thru a spinlock. It's a single line

So as a single hander, you only had your hand off the tiller for a few seconds while bring down the spinnaker and then making your turn at the downwind mark without fouling...

[Cheechako]

....cruising....

[trepanger]

Chris Mac I thinks your right about white sails I wasn't thinking about damage and it would be a lot safer and better control with reefed sails not going to get much more speed anyway

[JPA Cate]

trepanger,

If you're sailing under spinnaker, singlehanded, with no main up at all, how do you douse it? We use a sock, but the spinny still needs to be blanketed by the main to be able to get the sock started down. Of course, it's a much larger spinnaker, but I was taught to blanket it and take it down fast, under whatever it has to come under. And not let go of the #$%&*@ halyard, too, as a matter of fact. ;-)

I agree with those who have said you'll give your spinny a longer life if you switch to the white sails when you've enough wind for hull speed. On this boat, we do not fly it when it's too rolly in the ocean (to avoid the dreaded hourglass wrap), and we take it down when we'll move just as well with the white sails. It is a lot of kite, but where it excels is in air so light the genoa will only give us 2.5 knots or so, but go to the effort to set the chute, and we're soon seeing 6s. Much nicer. And flat water, too. Not bad.



Ann