What Kind of Sailboat is this?

[SkiprJohn]

The cockpit coaming on the Shock comes back to nearly the transom. The Cal 21 does not. The handrails on the cabin top look like the Shock.

I'd say it's the Cal 21.

[Time2Go]

Originally Posted by SkiprJohn

The cockpit coaming on the Shock comes back to nearly the transom. The Cal 21 does not. The handrails on the cabin top look like the Shock.

I'd say it's the Cal 21.

,

Might be this boat
O'Day Mariner 2+2 (19')
Over 4000 built in many versions
Still in production by Stuart Marine
This boat has an iron swing keel not a centerboard
Rig dimensions and parts can be found at DR Marine
I sail this guy two or three days a week on a 1500 acre lake

[sunbird10201]

ABSOLUTELY NOT AN O'DAY MARINER!
WE OWNED A CAL 21 FOR 38 YEARS, AND I AM PRESENTLY LOOKING AT MARINERS AS A POSSIBLE REPLACEMENT FOR MY O'DAY DAY SAILER, I KNOW WHAT A CAL 21 LOOKS LIKE AND THIS IS A CAL 21!!!!!!

Besides ,the MARINER has a centerboard (it may be 165# of cast iron on the O'DAY-built ones, but it is still a CENTERBOARD ,since most of the ballast on a Mariner is inside the boat, 200# of lead for the O'DAY, 250# for the STUARTs, the Stuart Mariner CB is 75#, DEFINITELY NOT a swing-keel) CAL 21 keel has a 360# lead bulb and the bottom and that is the only ballast. (Sales brochure was wrong, maybe original intention was to make the keel out of cast iron, but when she went into production the keel was a lead bulb on a fiberglass fin with a steel backbone inside the fin)

This boat is a CAL 21, no doubt!! Mariner cockpit is longer in proportion to the cabin, foredeck is shorter, transom is nearly vertical (CAL 21 transom is sloped), Mariner bow is more curved compared to the near straight line slope of the CAL bow, Mariner has less freeboard, Cal 21 boom is shorter (8'6" compared to 10' boom on Mariner), Mariner CB trunk is capped with a reel mounted on top for CB pendant, CAL 21 Keel well is open to cockpit when keel is raised and winch is mounted on removeable plank (winch should actually be on top of that plank, no underneath), with keel down the cockpit sole on the CAL 21 is flush, entire keel trunk is below cockpit level.

As to the handrails, they were most often added by owners. I don't think they were even an option from CAL, but I know they were not standard.

[Time2Go]

Hi Sunbird
Just a "Might Be"
But seeing how you owned the same boat for so long
I toss in my hat
I've owned the Mariner pictured for the past year it's an
Oday Mariner 2+2 version
I'm sure you will be happy with one
I daysail it and at times have camped out on it for overnighters
Active owners association and a recent complete overhaul article
in one of the mags
Enjoy

[Time2Go]

Hi Sunbird,
just another quick question for my own knowledge base
What is the difference between a centerboard and a swing keel
I was under the inpression that a centerboard rises and lowers vertically
while a swing keel pivots on a pin or bolt.
Am I getting a centerboard and dagger board mixed up?
Thanx

[sunbird10201]

Yep, if it raises/lowers vertically through a short (fore and aft) trunk it is a daggerboard (think of a dagger/knife going into it's holder) a Centerboard usually pivots into the trunk like a jacknife. Now to REALLY confuse you.... technically, a dagerboard is a TYPE of Centerboard, sort-of like every square is a rectangle, but not every rectagle is a square.

A swing-keel / retractable keel is also basically a type of centerboard, but it will contain most if not all of the boat's ballast (hence "Keel"), most swing-keels or retractable keels will have some form of setup to lock them in the down position (though many owners choose not to use the locks) to keep the keel down if the boat ever took a knockdown. Some retractable keels are like a dagerboard, retracting vertically.

The Mariner is sort-of a hybrid, and is actually what is called a "Ballasted centerboard" boat. That is due to the lead ballast inside the hull that is a major part of ner stability (of course the 165# CB helps alot!) The later O'DAY 19 that replaced the Mariner is also this type (300# of lead inside plus a 52# CB) The Newer Stuart Mariner is closer to those proportions, 75# Fiberglass CB, 250# of lead in the bilge. Stuart claims the lighter CB could be used on hte O'DAY models...... but, I wonder how it affects the righting force.......

A lot of people figure that the centerboard is acting like a keel to prevent leeway, and so if it swings it must be a "swing-keel". So don't feel alone in your thinking! But, technically, a swing-keel is more or less a HEAVY ballasted centerboard (CAL 21 has 360#, Venture 21 had 500#, Catalina 22 also has about 500# keel, all need strong winches to raise/lower, unlike the simple reel on a Mariner or the real simple simple line that pulls the CB up on my DS II.) Larger boats (like O'DAY 20, 23 ,25, 26, Precision 18, 21, 23, and others) have a Keel/Centerboard where hte centerboard is housed inside the keel. CB weighs about 20-50# and the ballast that keeps the boat upright is housed inside that shoal keel.

Kind of funny. but when we bought the CAL 21 back in 1970, I'm glad my Parents decided on the CAL 21 instead of the Mariner 2-2 that we also considered. For our growing family at the time (I was 5 and my Sister was 1) the CAL worked out better. What's funny is that now, 45 years later... a Mariner would suit my needs much better than the CAL would! The 10" draft CB up of the Mariner would allow mooring in the cove where I have my DS II, but the CAL with the 4'3" keel locked down would be too deep. Keel really can't be raised/lowered easily like the CB on a Mariner or DS II. I'm also looking (actually, it's just dreaming at the moment) at the O'DAY 19 and 192 as possible replacements for my DS II, I like the Mariner.... but the others have a bit more freeboard and came from the factory with a special locker for the outboard gas tank, but Mariners are usually less $$ due to age. Not always.... but usually! (Check out the 1967 Mariner that Stuart restored and was selling on their website!)

OK, school's out! <GRIN!>

When you mention that overhaul article, was that the one about restoring the CB in GOOD OLD BOAT? I read that one, and it eased my misgivings about the cast-iron CB a bit. I have coresponded with the author, he has a great website about the Mariners and a great showcase of old sales brochures (He scanned and sent me the pages relating to the DS II and Widgeon, both boats that I created expanded owners manuals for).

[SkiprJohn]

Originally Posted by sunbird10201

Yep, if it raises/lowers vertically through a short (fore and aft) trunk it is a daggerboard (think of a dagger/knife going into it's holder) a Centerboard usually pivots into the trunk like a jacknife. Now to REALLY confuse you.... technically, a dagerboard is a TYPE of Centerboard, sort-of like every square is a rectangle, but not every rectagle is a square.

A swing-keel / retractable keel is also basically a type of centerboard, but it will contain most if not all of the boat's ballast (hence "Keel"), most swing-keels or retractable keels will have some form of setup to lock them in the down position (though many owners choose not to use the locks) to keep the keel down if the boat ever took a knockdown. Some retractable keels are like a dagerboard, retracting vertically.

The Mariner is sort-of a hybrid, and is actually what is called a "Ballasted centerboard" boat. That is due to the lead ballast inside the hull that is a major part of ner stability (of course the 165# CB helps alot!) The later O'DAY 19 that replaced the Mariner is also this type (300# of lead inside plus a 52# CB) The Newer Stuart Mariner is closer to those proportions, 75# Fiberglass CB, 250# of lead in the bilge. Stuart claims the lighter CB could be used on hte O'DAY models...... but, I wonder how it affects the righting force.......

A lot of people figure that the centerboard is acting like a keel to prevent leeway, and so if it swings it must be a "swing-keel". So don't feel alone in your thinking! But, technically, a swing-keel is more or less a HEAVY ballasted centerboard (CAL 21 has 360#, Venture 21 had 500#, Catalina 22 also has about 500# keel, all need strong winches to raise/lower, unlike the simple reel on a Mariner or the real simple simple line that pulls the CB up on my DS II.) Larger boats (like O'DAY 20, 23 ,25, 26, Precision 18, 21, 23, and others) have a Keel/Centerboard where hte centerboard is housed inside the keel. CB weighs about 20-50# and the ballast that keeps the boat upright is housed inside that shoal keel.

Kind of funny. but when we bought the CAL 21 back in 1970, I'm glad my Parents decided on the CAL 21 instead of the Mariner 2-2 that we also considered. For our growing family at the time (I was 5 and my Sister was 1) the CAL worked out better. What's funny is that now, 45 years later... a Mariner would suit my needs much better than the CAL would! The 10" draft CB up of the Mariner would allow mooring in the cove where I have my DS II, but the CAL with the 4'3" keel locked down would be too deep. Keel really can't be raised/lowered easily like the CB on a Mariner or DS II. I'm also looking (actually, it's just dreaming at the moment) at the O'DAY 19 and 192 as possible replacements for my DS II, I like the Mariner.... but the others have a bit more freeboard and came from the factory with a special locker for the outboard gas tank, but Mariners are usually less $$ due to age. Not always.... but usually! (Check out the 1967 Mariner that Stuart restored and was selling on their website!)

OK, school's out! <GRIN!>

When you mention that overhaul article, was that the one about restoring the CB in GOOD OLD BOAT? I read that one, and it eased my misgivings about the cast-iron CB a bit. I have coresponded with the author, he has a great website about the Mariners and a great showcase of old sales brochures (He scanned and sent me the pages relating to the DS II and Widgeon, both boats that I created expanded owners manuals for).

So, what you've said is that a centerboard could be a board but a swing keel is weighted, i. e. steel, lead, stainless?

Just trying to make certain that I get an understanding here. In all the 40 plus years I've been sailing I've considered a centerboard and swing keel as the same thing. A daggerboard of course is different except our club's West Wight Potter has a 300lb daggerboard. Does that become a daggerkeel because it's weighted?

kind regards,

[sunbird10201]

Originally Posted by SkiprJohn

So, what you've said is that a centerboard could be a board but a swing keel is weighted, i. e. steel, lead, stainless?

Just trying to make certain that I get an understanding here. In all the 40 plus years I've been sailing I've considered a centerboard and swing keel as the same thing. A daggerboard of course is different except our club's West Wight Potter has a 300lb daggerboard. Does that become a daggerkeel because it's weighted?

kind regards,

You've got it, basically a swing-keel is heavily ballasted and intended to be in only one of two positions, fully up or fully down and usually intended to be locked in the down position while sailing (why I prefer the term "Retractable-keel" instead of "swing-keel" less confusing.) As I say.... a swing-keel IS a form of centerboard..... but the heavy ballast in the swing-keel is the difference. And, the centerboard has hte advantage of being adjustable for depth, you can raise it partway on a reach or run to reduce drag, or raise it partway to balance the helm (reducing weather-helm by raising CB) or for entering shallow waters. Although some people do adjust the position of a swing-keel like that.... it isn't as practical.

A centerboard boat (in most cases) depends on the centerboard only for directional control, it is too lightly weighted to affect capsize resistance, boat is vitually as stable with the CB up as with it down (Yes, Mariner is sort-of an exception to that rule, but is still a CB boat, a heavy CB... but still a CB).
A Swing-keel, since it contains in most cases, all of the boat's ballast, will be much more stable (usually self-righting) with the keel down and locked. Also, as the keel is raised, that ballast weight moves aft, affecting the trim of the boat. Center of gravity moves up and aft as keel is raised.

That West-Wight-Potter daggerboard could be called a "Lifting-Keel" or "Dagger-keel". Even retractable-keel...... all are correct. I guess you could even call it a ballasted daggerboard? Those boats are interesting, I guess hte tackle used to raise/lower the keel is kind-of in the way when lowered? In the recent Good Old Boat review of the design it mentions that the test boat's owner had re-rigged it to be unhooked and tucked up out of the way while sailing instead of leaving it hanging in the center of the cabin.

I guess that a simple way to tell difference between a CB and a swing-keel, on trailerable boats, would be that is it requires a hefty winch, as used on a boat trailer, in order to raise/lower the centerboard... it would be better known as a swing-keel. If a light weight line or simple reel-type setup like on hte Mariner is used, it is a centerboard. Weight of the board is another clue, most boats under say, 26' will have a centerboard weighing much less than 100# (I"d say 45# is usually average, (my DS II is about 25#), a typical swing-keel on a 20-26' boat will be 400# to 1200#.

A centerboard is usually only heavy enough (or weighted enough) to allow it to drop down easily (negative buoyancy), a swing-keel is heavy enough to keep the boat upright while sailing, usually the keel makes the boat "Self-Righting".

Larger boats (over 26') may actually have winch to raise/lower their centerboards (CB often housed inside the fixed keel), but as long as the centerboard does not contain the major portion of the ballast, it is a centerboard. One other clue..... if a centerboard boat were to lose the CB, it might be hard to sail... but, the boat usually will not be suddenly more prone to capsize. If a swing-keel (or other type of retractable-keel) boat looses her keel...... pretty good chance she is going over!

Tomato, Tomahto....... For every "fact" on either side of the discussion I'm sure we could each come up with several exceptions......

<GRIN!!>

[SkiprJohn]

Originally Posted by sunbird10201

Tomato, Tomahto....... For every "fact" on either side of the discussion I'm sure we could each come up with several exceptions......

<GRIN!!>

And here I thought it was just a ploy by MaGregor to make their boats sound more stable.

As new boats come out there are new terms to learn. That's one I never did pay much attention to. When I learned to sail there were centerboards, daggerboards, full and fin keels. 3/4, wings, bulbs, cutaways and all were way out there.

Those cables on the 300 lb daggerboard do get in the way. The crank is on the inside of the transom and gets in the way of your tiller too. There are a few design problems with that system.

[JB0101]

Sunbird10201, I am considering buying a 1973 CAL 21, could you offer me any advice on anything particular that I should look at? Also any info on how they perform is greatly appreciated. I am hoping to sail on the bays, lakes and possibly just offshore in the Sarasota/Tampa Florida area. Thank you.