Tesla Electric Yacht unveiled...

[adoxograph]

Originally Posted by StuM

Hydrocarbon <> fossil fuel.

I dare you: Say this a Peak-Oil-We-Are-All-Doomed-Prepper believer

[first wind]

Originally Posted by Stumble

And I was actually talking about using electricity to manufacture ethanol not plant bases. It needs to be a storage system for electricity after all, not a separate fuel.

interesting. would you mind going into detail about that? i don't know about anyone else but, i would like to know more about both elements of that:

a) producing ethanol with electricity

and

b) using this as a storage system for electricity

[first wind]

Originally Posted by StuM

The problem at the moment is that many cultures are still at the "need to make lots of babies to ensure that enough survive to adulthood" way of thinking and they haven't adjusted to the decreasing levels of infant mortality. Families thus have too many mouths to feed (and educate) and that keeps them in poverty/ignorance.

Educating people to have less children now that more are surviving in itself raises standard of living.

very true and this idea of reproducing as much as possible to ensure survival is at the root of some religions ban on birth control

[StuM]

Originally Posted by first wind

interesting. would you mind going into detail about that? i don't know about anyone else but, i would like to know more about both elements of that:

a) producing ethanol with electricity

and

b) using this as a storage system for electricity

One of many articles abut it:
https://energy.gov/articles/scientis...ed-co2-ethanol

"The team used a catalyst made of carbon, copper and nitrogen and applied voltage to trigger a complicated chemical reaction that essentially reverses the combustion process. With the help of the nanotechnology-based catalyst -- which contains multiple reaction sites -- the solution of carbon dioxide dissolved in water turned into ethanol with a yield of 63 percent. "

Having created ethanol using electricity, the ethanol is de-facto "a storage system for electricity" since it can be converted back into electricity.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by first wind

i wasn't making a case for a hybrid system, actually. i was, perhaps, making a case for finding and implementing alternative methods for generating energy.

The discussion was about hybrids.

i disagree about the failure rate of genetic hybrids. almost all of the plants we eat for foods are hybrids. they were created by mixing different varieties of the same plants or in some cases different plants to get larger or sweeter fruit, bigger yields, or to allow a plant to grow in environments it normally couldn't thrive in (this is done with wine grapes). hybridization of food plants has been a big success. tons of flowering or non-flowering house plants are also hybrids.

You are looking at survivor bias. The vast majority of hybrids are unmitigated failures. Just randomly crossing two things (animal or power plants) and expecting success if foolish.

Again, back to the point, what is the goal in asking for a hybrid propulsion system? If it's just some random thought that it will be better, that's false in the context of a displacement cruising boat.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by first wind

wow. relax. i was joking. so serious.

Then you are the exception. A lot of people get truly upset when you call out Musk for essentially building an overpriced electric golf cart at a massive price.

by the way. i think you mistake my intention. i wasn't defending this specific fake boat. the question was raised as to why these types of things...electric or alternative power boats...keep popping up in threads. also, it was asked what the intended goal of desiring such things was. i was attempting to answer those two questions.

Ramblings about saving the earth are misplaced without digging into the physics. I can double the fuel efficiency of just about any displacement cruising boat for zero cost. I can even cut the original purchase price...simply throttle back from around 80-90% of hull speed to around 40-50% of hull speed. If you are buying new, spec a motor of half the HP and keep it down around 40-50% of hull speed. This is what most of the Electric/Hybrid proponents wind up doing.

of course, there is another less loft reason for wanting an electric motor for your sailboat:

internal combustion is loud and stinky. it's great at the drag strip or our riding a motorcycle. it kind of ruins the sailing experience. they don't call them stink-pots for nothing. electric motors are quite and don't stink or create a lot of vibration. they don't get oil in your bilge.if electric power could be worked out properly, it would be an awesome thing for sailboats.

Your follow up comment is almost all completely wrong:
- We swapped out the old 2 stroke for a 4 stroke on our last boat. I had to regularly look over the stern to see if it was still running when in neutral because you couldn't hear it or feel vibration. Likewise never had an odor issue. Odor is also not an issue on our current diesel powered boat or our prior Twin V8 boat.
- Actually at a drag strip, an electric motor of the same HP will beat out the IC engine every time and since you only need to store enough fuel for a 1/4 mile, it's very practical. A totally different use case from a cruising boat that could care less about acceleration and the motor is sized for continuous cruising speed.
- It does nothing to the sailing experience as you can always turn the motor off regardless of ICE, Electric or Hybrid. If you are motor sailing, they are all very quiet at low power output. Then again if you are purist sailor, you are probably using less than 10gal per year, so the gains to be had are negligible.
- No oil in my bilge but if you are running a hybrid, you still have a diesel engine, so if that's an issue for you it will remain an issue.

This just shows the misnomers thrown out by those who want so badly for a better option but don't want to actually look at the issues that come with the new options.

I agree, a VIABLE pure electric propulsion system would be cool but there is no sign of one on the horizon.

[Racoon1960]

Pls nobody tell the folks at Alibi that their engine does not exist. .. might affect their sales!

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Racoon1960

Pls nobody tell the folks at Alibi that their engine does not exist. .. might affect their sales!

Of course their engines exist, but with 2 x 55HP motors you are not going to be using solar and batteries to drive them, thats why they have a honking great 110 HP diesel generator on board.

Mind you, I have the usual doubts about them. Once again when a manufacturer of an EP boat lists their solar panels as being 125 watts/hour and when you look at where they are placing them you have to doubt how much they know about what they are selling.

The grey triangle is 1250W of solar panels. Sitting amidships under the main, how many Watt hours do you reckon they will contribute per day to driving those 40kW motors?

AT €150,000 for that drive setup, I fail to see what it can do that a couple of Yanmars can't.

[Stumble]

Originally Posted by Racoon1960

Pls nobody tell the folks at Alibi that their engine does not exist. .. might affect their sales!

There is no question at all that electric motors work, they are fantastic, have very high efficiencies, are quiet, and have loads of torque. The problem is where do you get the electricity to run them?

Batteries don't store enough, solar panels can't produce enough, so your only option is a big generator to drive them. But converting diesel to rotational energy to electricity (via the generator), then back to rotational energy (electric motors), is far less efficient than a direct drive diesel.

I will give Alibi credit for installing reasonable size engines and a generator. And if this boat is a dock queen they may rarely need the big generator. Since you can cram an acceptable amount of power in batteries on board, so long as you can plug them in at night. But that just isn't a cruisers option.

[Cadence]

[QUOTE=adoxograph;2305096]The solution is simple:

Mount a big fan on your boat and make your own wind. No motor needed. [/QUOTE

Makes about as much sense. Maybe the prop being turned can generate power for the fan?

[Racoon]

What if you deploy a hydraulic turbine when under sail at X knts and sacrifice some speed to recharge the batteries? A bit of a spin on the way Tesla use braking to generate power?

[Paul Elliott]

Originally Posted by Racoon

What if you deploy a hydraulic turbine when under sail at X knts and sacrifice some speed to recharge the batteries? A bit of a spin on the way Tesla use braking to generate power?

I don't know about hydraulic, but using a propeller, attached or towed, has long been used to generate electricity. You lose a little speed, but long-distance racers commonly use the WattAndSea generator so it can't be that bad (Hydrogénérateurs Watt&Sea : votre voilier autonome en énergie |). The old "propeller on a rope" generators have been around for decades. Some people couple a generator to the prop shaft and let the free-wheeling propeller make electricity when under sail.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Racoon

What if you deploy a hydraulic turbine when under sail at X knts and sacrifice some speed to recharge the batteries? A bit of a spin on the way Tesla use braking to generate power?

If you are just trying to get a small amount of electricity for house loads, it's viable and has been done for years.

If you are trying to save energy for propulsion (aka: regenerative braking on cars, which tesla did not pioneer), it doesn't work as there isn't a stop light on the open ocean every 30 seconds forcing you to brake. The energy you pick up from the hydraulic turbine will eat up more propulsive power than it is able to capture. Same thing happens with regenerative braking but you were going to waste that energy anyway turning it to heat in the brake pads, so anything you save is a bonus.

There is a situation where it can work. In heavy winds where you have more than enough power under sail to reach hull speed. Rather than reefing, you can burn off some of the extra power using your hydraulic turbine. There's a few practicalities that make it not really worth the trouble:
- Reefing isn't just about controlling speed. You are also taking stress and strain off the sails and rigging, so any fuel savings has to be balanced against the extra wear and tear in high winds having full sails up. Also there is a safety aspect. In high winds keeping more sail up, it's harder to control the situation.
- Probably the bigger issue is how often will you be able to make use of the system. Weekend and Coastal cruisers typically only sail for a few hours at a time and then have access to shore power or they are anchored for a day or more. Hard to get enough power to do anything. Even circumnavigators crossing oceans, spend 90% of their time at coastal destinations anchored or tied up at dock where the system will do nothing. During that 10% or less when they are at sea, most of the time, the winds are not keeping them at hull speed, so losing a kt is probably not worth the trouble if it's going to add a day or two to the trip. Maybe 5-10% of the less than 10% of the time winds are pushing the boat at hull speed but then you have storm conditions, so maybe .5-1% of the time, you can really take advantage of the system.

By contrast, wind generators may generate 50-90% of the time (at the high end in the trade winds). Solar will generate 90-99% of the time (again at the high end in the tropics). Generators will generate as long as you have fuel.

There are simply better ways to capture energy for house loads.

[Jim Cate]

Solar will generate 90-99% of the time (again at the high end in the tropics).

Only place that solar will generate those hours is in polar regions in teh summer. In the tropics, days are never all that long.

A nit-pik for sure, but true!

Jim

[Stumble]

Originally Posted by Racoon

What if you deploy a hydraulic turbine when under sail at X knts and sacrifice some speed to recharge the batteries? A bit of a spin on the way Tesla use braking to generate power?

They work fine, the problem is that to generate meaningful amounts of power you need a boat speed higher than most cruisers achieve. They are pretty much standard equipment on 60' plus race boats, but these are vessels capable of regular 300nm days.

By the time you account for underway power demands (autopilot, radar, electronics, etc) the break even point is that you need to average 5kn speed thru the water. This is actually right at the averages speed most cruising boats under 45' achieve.

So yes it is a reasonable option for either very fast, or very power miser yachts. But for the vast majority of people it's a time best a break even over the long term.

For the same money, another's solar panel would generally be a better bet. Plus they work while at anchor.