Self Steering - Sailing downwind

[Captain Graham]

I sail in Lake Erie it is 200 miles west to east and is very shallow.
So even with just a 15 MPH wind the waves can build a good chop.

I like to balance my sailboat and setup self steering.
Going into the wind and waves no problem but going down wind I have always had problems.
This has been a problem with the 5 sailboats I have owned.

The issue is when a large wave catches up with me it picks up my stern and pushes it to one side.
Then the wind catches the sails and I round up.

Well this weekend I kind of found a solution.
The weather was great 10-15 MPH winds and a normal good chop.
I sailed upwind closed hauled at a about 5 mph with self steering for about 3 - 4 hours.
Very relaxing.

But when I started my return I tried sailing with just my jib but still the same old problem.
The wind had picked up a little to 15-20 MPH

Well I got a little tired from hand steering so I wanted to heave too and take a break but I was too tired to put up the main.
So I tacked and back winded the jib but did not put up the main.

Too my surprise my sailboat started to sail almost down wind and stayed on course well.
I did have to make a few adjustment but it worked.

So with jib only and hand steering I was sailing at about 5 mph
With the jib back winded and self steering I was sailing at about 3 MPH.
The course was not directly down wind but good enough for me.

I sailed this way for 2 hours without touching the tiller.

Has anyone else done this?

[ChrisJHC]

Not sure I understand your description.
You say you were sailing downwind at 3mph with a backwinded jib.
The only way I could picture that would be if you were sailing backwards.
Is that correct?

If so, I’m surprised that a wave or wind gust didn’t push the bow around and then you’d be sailing normally downwind.

[Knotical]

Originally Posted by Captain Graham

So I tacked and back winded the jib but did not put up the main

How do you tack going downwind?

I am with Chris here, I don’t understand how you were sailing with a backwinded jib, the boat would want to round up.

[boatman61]

Easy.. just feed out enough sheet..

[thomm225]

In a good breeze of 15-25 knots or more, most sailboats do just fine sailing downwind with jib only.

In the video my jib furler is jammed and main halyard is fouled but since I had enough jib out, I sailed (on autopilot) the 30 miles home as it was.

Winds were 20-28 knots or so.

You can hear my autopilot at the start of the video correcting the course.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agtdrmAqojs

[Captain Graham]

Originally Posted by Captain Graham

I sail in Lake Erie it is 200 miles west to east and is very shallow.
So even with just a 15 MPH wind the waves can build a good chop.

I like to balance my sailboat and setup self steering.
Going into the wind and waves no problem but going down wind I have always had problems.
This has been a problem with the 5 sailboats I have owned.

The issue is when a large wave catches up with me it picks up my stern and pushes it to one side.
Then the wind catches the sails and I round up.

Well this weekend I kind of found a solution.
The weather was great 10-15 MPH winds and a normal good chop.
I sailed upwind closed hauled at a about 5 mph with self steering for about 3 - 4 hours.
Very relaxing.

But when I started my return I tried sailing with just my jib but still the same old problem.
The wind had picked up a little to 15-20 MPH

Well I got a little tired from hand steering so I wanted to heave too and take a break but I was too tired to put up the main.
So I tacked and back winded the jib but did not put up the main.

Too my surprise my sailboat started to sail almost down wind and stayed on course well.
I did have to make a few adjustment but it worked.

So with jib only and hand steering I was sailing at about 5 mph
With the jib back winded and self steering I was sailing at about 3 MPH.
The course was not directly down wind but good enough for me.

I sailed this way for 2 hours without touching the tiller.

Has anyone else done this?

Not sure if I explained it right.

Normally the jib is on the leeward side and the jib sheet is also on the leeward side.

But if I have the jib on the leeward side and the jib sheet on the windward side the jib is backwinded
It is just like but without having the main up and going more downwind

[Captain Graham]

The more I think about the problem might be that the jib is too small.
Going downwind the wind and waves want to turn the boat into the wind.
Having a jib only should counter that force and have the boat go downwind.
But this assumes the jib is large enough.
So when I have the jib backwinded it is making the jib more powerful when it starts to head into the wind keeping the boat going downwind .

I was using a 100% working jib the next time out I will try a larger jib.
I may also try using a pole on the jib.

PS Using an autopilot is another option but want to learn how to self steer without one.

[SailingHarmonie]

Without some kind of mechanical correction very, very few boats will hold a straight course downwind. The balance of forces just doesn’t add up to a stable solution. There is no force on the sails to force the bow in one direction or the other, so any random input from wave action just pushes it around.

By back winding the jib you created a force pushing the bow further downwind, that rudder angle was countering. As the boat turns down wind, the force pushing it further downwind decreases, and the rudder corrects. You basically are hove to and configured to fore reach a lot. This will always be very slow, and probably very hard on the sail.

[Tedd]

It's probably your use of the term "backwinded" that's confusing people. Backwinded means that the wind is on the forward side of the sail, not the aft side. It sounds to me like what you're doing is a broad reach with the jib on the windward side of the boat instead of the leeward side. Is that correct?

If I had to guess, I'd say what's happening is that when the following wave pushes the stern away from the side it increases the jib force, creating a countering moment that steers the boat the other way. And when the following wave pushes the stern toward the side the jib is on it reduces the jib force, reducing the moment in that direction and also steering the boat back.

I'm definitely going to try that next time I'm sailing!

[DoubleD]

I believe Capt Graham is basically describing a less than ideal hove too movement. If properly Hove too, the boat would be going sideways, with a slight forward progress, but with only the jib backed, he has more forward progress along with some sideways movement (leeway). This way the boat is moving downwind, but the bow is pointing more like its on a broad reach. Not efficient sailing but seems a good solution for self-steering with some forward progress. Or I can be completely wrong.


DD

[Don C L]

I am guessing like Boatie said, you had let the sheet out quite a bit but I'd sure like to see a video of it. Was your tiller tied off?

[wholybee]

What kind of wind vane was this? A servo pendulum type and aux rudder type will handle the situation differently.

When sailing downwind, more jib will *increase* the tendency to round up, especially with no main. This is because more jib will increase the imbalance between port and starboard. The best balance would be with less than normal sail, wing on wing, with both the main and the jib reefed. As soon as you get a larger sail far off the centerline, the boat becomes less stable.

Yes, most boats will sail fine downwind with only a jib. But best balance is wing on wing. This is important when sailing by a windvane, which can't anticipate a swell behind and compensate for it before it moves the boat. And downwind windvanes are at a disadvantage because of reduced apparent wind. A servo-pendulum also needs boat speed for the pendulum to swing. Even with the air vane hard over, without boat speed the rudder will not turn.

When I sail downwind with the windvane, I usually pole the jib to windward, and have the main to leeward with a preventer. This way, if I do round up (which is less likely with both sails but can happen) the jib will backwind quickly and that will immediately push the boat back downwind. The pole on the jib is critical here, because it allows the jib to be set to windward, and because of how the jib will backwind if you round-up.

Twin headsails, both on a pole, is ideal for wind steering downwind, but most boats are not setup for that.

[Captain Graham]

Originally Posted by DoubleD

I believe Capt Graham is basically describing a less than ideal hove too movement. If properly Hove too, the boat would be going sideways, with a slight forward progress, but with only the jib backed, he has more forward progress along with some sideways movement (leeway). This way the boat is moving downwind, but the bow is pointing more like its on a broad reach. Not efficient sailing but seems a good solution for self-steering with some forward progress. Or I can be completely wrong.


DD

Yes that is what I am doing.

Just to be clear to others when I say self steering I mean nothing except a bungee cord to hold the tiller in place.
No autopilot, no windvane and no sheet to tiller.

Here is a video of my Alacrity 19 ft (not my current boat) self steering upwind with just a bungee cord.
My Watkins 27 setup is the same.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLYu4FDk-mQ

[thomm225]

If you have tiller steering, just get a tiller pilot and don't backwind the jib.

Most any size jib will keep the boat headed downwind.

I did wing and wing on this sail home as the wind was light enough, and the sails just positioned themselves without me doing anything so I just went with it.

Autopilot has the helm.

It's a 20 mile crossing. Wind continued to increase so I got across in under 4 hours.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ejcp-rCYz3U

[Lee Jerry]

Originally Posted by thomm225

If you have tiller steering, just get a tiller pilot and don't backwind the jib.

Most any size jib will keep the boat headed downwind.

The OP says this:

Originally Posted by Captain Graham

Just to be clear to others when I say self steering I mean nothing except a bungee cord to hold the tiller in place.
No autopilot, no windvane and no sheet to tiller.

So your advice is to get an autopilot.

That's helpful...