Self Steering - Sailing downwind

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Lee Jerry

So your advice is to get an autopilot.

That's helpful...

Thanks!

I thought so as well.

Self-Steering doesn't work very well DDW, but an inexpensive tiller pilot does.

See video.

I just relaxed and enjoyed the scenery on this 35 mile sail home DDW under tiller pilot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agtdrmAqojs

[Don C L]

I've always wanted to try this twin headsails/self-steering set-up, but don't really need it yet. Anyone using this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sy53gIOrE40

[wholybee]

Originally Posted by Don C L

I've always wanted to try this twin headsails/self-steering set-up, but don't really need it yet. Anyone using this?

That looks pretty scary. If the wind/sea picks up, I do not want my poles flopping around like that.

[Maryscoty1]

Originally Posted by wholybee

What kind of wind vane was this? A servo pendulum type and aux rudder type will handle the situation differently.



When sailing downwind, more jib will *increase* the tendency to round up, especially with no main. This is because more jib will increase the imbalance between port and starboard. The best balance would be with less than normal sail, wing on wing, with both the main and the jib reefed. As soon as you get a larger sail far off the centerline, the boat becomes less stable.



Yes, most boats will sail fine downwind with only a jib. But best balance is wing on wing. This is important when sailing by a windvane, which can't anticipate a swell behind and compensate for it before it moves the boat. And downwind windvanes are at a disadvantage because of reduced apparent wind. A servo-pendulum also needs boat speed for the pendulum to swing. Even with the air vane hard over, without boat speed the rudder will not turn.



When I sail downwind with the windvane, I usually pole the jib to windward, and have the main to leeward with a preventer. This way, if I do round up (which is less likely with both sails but can happen) the jib will backwind quickly and that will immediately push the boat back downwind. The pole on the jib is critical here, because it allows the jib to be set to windward, and because of how the jib will backwind if you round-up.



Twin headsails, both on a pole, is ideal for wind steering downwind, but most boats are not setup for that.

Got it! When sailing downwind, having a balanced setup with less sail and a wing-on-wing configuration can help maintain stability. It's important to consider the windvane's limitations in anticipating swells and compensating for them. Poling the jib to windward and having the main to leeward with a preventer can help prevent rounding up, and having a pole on the jib allows for quick backwinding if needed. Twin headsails on a pole can be ideal for wind control.

[Maryscoty1]

Originally Posted by wholybee

That looks pretty scary. If the wind/sea picks up, I do not want my poles flopping around like that.

Same here, it’s scary…. Though I really don’t know much about sailing but I had a little experience about it

[thomm225]

Drawing by Steven Callahan from the book Adrift.

He's running the Trades on his 21' Homemade Sailboat in the Mini-Transat Race in the 1980's before his boat broke in half about 435 miles West of the Canary Islands.

He drifted the rest of the way in a 6 man Avon Life Raft

[Jim Cate]

IIRC twin headsails on poles with sheets lead to the tiller was a downwind technique used by the Hiscocks in Wanderer III. Only good very near DDW, but no extra gear or rigging needed (beyond the poles).

Jim

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

IIRC twin headsails on poles with sheets lead to the tiller was a downwind technique used by the Hiscocks in Wanderer III. Only good very near DDW, but no extra gear or rigging needed (beyond the poles).

Jim

Right and in those days folks were good at that technique, but today most cruisers don't have the sailing experience to pull it off.

Maybe those of us that raced for years could however, but it's so much easier simply to buy an electric tiller pilot or windvane.

Those that don't sail much then try sheet to tiller etc. will have trouble due to lack of time on the water

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by thomm225

Right and in those days folks were good at that technique, but today most cruisers don't have the sailing experience to pull it off.

Maybe those of us that raced for years could however, but it's so much easier simply to buy an electric tiller pilot or windvane.

Those that don't sail much then try sheet to tiller etc. will have trouble due to lack of time on the water

So will anyone first time.. but as they say, "practice makes perfect"..
I started off as a purist.. engine less and minimum elecs ie 1.5volt battery nav lights and bungee cord tiller steering.
If it kept me on course long enough to make a brew or heat up a Campbell soup I was over the moon..

[Captain Graham]

Originally Posted by thomm225

Right and in those days folks were good at that technique, but today most cruisers don't have the sailing experience to pull it off.

Maybe those of us that raced for years could however, but it's so much easier simply to buy an electric tiller pilot or windvane.

Those that don't sail much then try sheet to tiller etc. will have trouble due to lack of time on the water

I have nothing against someone using a tiller pilot or windvave.
Who knows as I get older I may use them myself.
But right now I want to learn how to self steering without them.
Since I mostly sail to nowhere it gives me something to do.

Another option is to drag a loop of rope (with or without a drogue) in the water from the stern to help stop the stern from being pushed around by the waves.
This will also slow my speed but again it would be fun to try.

[Don C L]

I’m afraid I’d burn up my tiller pilot if I relied on it for hours on end when running! Better carry a few spares!

[wholybee]

Originally Posted by Captain Graham

I have nothing against someone using a tiller pilot or windvave.
Who knows as I get older I may use them myself.
But right now I want to learn how to self steering without them.
Since I mostly sail to nowhere it gives me something to do.

Another option is to drag a loop of rope (with or without a drogue) in the water from the stern to help stop the stern from being pushed around by the waves.
This will also slow my speed but again it would be fun to try.

Using a drag device is a last resort for steering. Figure out sheet to tiller for sailing downwind.

First, you need to be able to balance the boat. Usually, upwind a boat can be balanced to not need any steering at all. Just lock the tiller in place, not exactly centered but a turning a few degrees turning to leeward (to counter a few degrees of weather helm-which you want to have). Then adjust the sails first to be able to stay on a course, then to control your course. Trim in to turn upwind, ease to turn downwind, and once set the boat will hold course without touching the tiller. That part should be pretty easy.

Sailing downwind, most boats need active steering. Balance the boat the best you can. You should aim for being able to sail straight for 30 seconds or so without needing any steering input. Then try sheet to tiller. Use one bungee, on the leeward side of the boat to the tiller. Then the jib sheet needs to cross the boat to the windward side and connects to the tiller to balance against the bungee.

[Don C L]

I have my doubts that sheet-to-tiller can be made to work DDW. Broad reaching, yes, but DDW I'd have to see it to believe it. Anybody got video?

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by Don C L

I have my doubts that sheet-to-tiller can be made to work DDW. Broad reaching, yes, but DDW I'd have to see it to believe it. Anybody got video?

From memory, John Letcher mentioned using a backwinded staysail to drive sheet-to-tiller steering when down wind. That is, the backed sail was the driver for the tiller and the jib was trimmed properly for the course.

Don't remember the details and we're away from the boat and the book just now...

Jim

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

From memory, John Letcher mentioned using a backwinded staysail to drive sheet-to-tiller steering when down wind. That is, the backed sail was the driver for the tiller and the jib was trimmed properly for the course.

Don't remember the details and we're away from the boat and the book just now...

Jim

Good memory, Jim! Yes on pages 46-48 he describes that, attributed to Tony Skidmore. I had passed right over that before, I don't have a staysail. But my interest is piqued now. However he describes it working on all points except DDW, (only to broad reaching.) For DDW, Letcher describes twin headsails. But if you don't mind broad reaching and gybing downwind he says the staysail option has a lot less rolling, which of course makes sense. The staysail, which could be a storm jib, is sheeted to a block on the windward shroud and then back to the tiller. Letcher says that as long as the strain on the shroud is spread over it with tubing or a length of wood, it should be ok to do it that way.