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Polux · 21-11-2014, 18:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by neilpride

.. vinilester and epoxy hulls are more and more used to, but to be honest you need to pay the Price, beneteaus and jeaneaus are solid FG below the waterline ..a big Oyster made in Carbon can cost twice or triple than Fg....

The Oysters have carbon spars but not a carbon hull even if they use it to reinforce some parts.

smackdaddy · 21-11-2014, 18:12

Neil - whatever you do - don't watch that "Project Video" video above. Rudder problems, bulkead tabbing letting go everywhere (it was on a lake after all), core problems everywhere, that thing is a seriously hot mess. No wonder yard guys love these old bluewater boats.

**neilpride** · 21-11-2014, 18:16

Then fine, im not against Carbon spars , in fact i believe is a huge improvement in all the aspects, they have pros and cons , and if Oyster use CF in certains áreas , that speak really well for Oyster...

**neilpride** · 21-11-2014, 18:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by smackdaddy

Neil - whatever you do - don't watch that "Project Video" video above. Rudder problems, bulkead tabbing letting go everywhere (it was on a lake after all), core problems everywhere, that thing is a seriously hot mess. No wonder yard guys love these old bluewater boats.

He he , i think you are another Hunter confused owner, just kidding!!!
no,i dont see the vid, and not, i dont love old full keelers heavy pigs doublé enders, you have a wrong picture of me or others in this fórum, since i can respect and understand a full keel devotee , im not in that game, i dont care if the vid show a full keel breaking in pieces, like i say before i deal with new and old, i like new and i like old , i love boats no matter the design or the year of construction, even your Hunter have some good features, not the B&G rig for sure he he... but is a good looking boat ..
You see , Monday im steeping a repaired mast with new rigging in a META 38 and the firs week of december we receive by freight a new mast for a First 40,7 who loose the mast in the last cane here in St Marteen, i dont remember the last time i work in a old bluewater full keeled boat man, maybe 3 years agoo... no idea.

smackdaddy · 21-11-2014, 18:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by neilpride

He he , i think you are another Hunter confused owner, just kidding!!!
no,i dont see the vid, and not, i dont love old full keelers heavy pigs doublé enders, you have a wrong picture of me or others in this fórum, since i can respect and understand a full keel devotee , im not in that game, i dont care if the vid show a full keel breaking in pieces, like i say before i deal with new and old, i like new and i like old , i love boats no matter the design or the year of construction, even your Hunter have some good features, not the B&G rig for sure he he... but is a good looking boat ..
You see , Monday im steeping a repaired mast with new rigging in a META 38 and the firs week of december we receive by freight a new mast for a First 40,7 who loose the mast in the last cane here in St Marteen, i dont remember the last time i work in a old bluewater full keeled boat man, maybe 3 years agoo... no idea.

Heh. I'm just giving you a hard time Neil. I like your style.

At the end of the day, you live in St. Marteen and I don't. You win.

**neilpride** · 21-11-2014, 18:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by smackdaddy

Heh. I'm just giving you a hard time Neil. I like your style.

At the end of the day, you live in St. Marteen and I don't. You win.

Haaa, you need to try harder hehe!!! seriously , the winners in gime a hard time are certain customers/ owners... there is where i have a hard time, St Marteen is not a Paradise like many of you think, we have problems like everywhere , but for the tipical tourist there is lots

of fun.....

Polux · 22-11-2014, 04:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by neilpride

Then fine, im not against Carbon spars , in fact i believe is a huge improvement in all the aspects, they have pros and cons , and if Oyster use CF in certains áreas , that speak really well for Oyster...

Yes, I agree with you on that. Oysters have been modernizing their boats, spade twin rudders, carbon spars, modern hulls designed by one of the top NA (the one that designs the Elan and the Azuree too), makes the new Oyster incomparably better than the older ones in what regards performance and we can see that on the IRC rating and on the ARC results, were the new Oysters do very well, as well as the older Oysters from their now extinct performance line (lightwave). New oysters are not old designed boats, like for instance Island Packet, Cabo Rico or Gozzard are.

But for most here that like old designed boats new Oysters will not fit on what they would call proper cruisers: They still think that carbon rigs and spade rudders are fragile things that should only be used on racing boats

I believe that the time where we will see a oyster with a full carbon hull will not be far. On Oyster they announce them already as "performance bluewater cruising yachts"

Polux · 22-11-2014, 05:26

Time for a look at the ARC+ the smaller ARC rally, while the big one is not setting sail. Almost all performance monohull cruisers chose to made the other and there are very few on this one but many fast performance cruising cats chose this one.

We can see that, independently of size all performance cruisers are on the first 1/3 of the rally. That all boats that sail on that 1/3 are modern designed ones, including a brand new Amel 55, that even if among the last of those is making equal play with a smaller First 45.

That on the head of the hull we have an aluminium monohull performance passagemaker that I had already talked here about, a Cigale 18, followed close by several performance bluewater cats (Outremer 51) and one big Lagoon 68.
That on those leading group there is a performance smaller performance cat making a great passage (Catana 471) as well as an even smaller performance monohull cruiser (X44). That one shows well that size of LWL is not the only thing that counts in what regards a fast offshore boat. Just look at the huge number of big boats way behind.

Also among the first a mass production cruiser, a very fast one, a Jeanneau 57

making equal play with the cats and the smaller XP 44.

I believe this ARC, as well as the bigger one will bring interesting information to this thread, since we are talking now about cruising boats charged for a crossing and we will have all information, even in what regards the number of diesel liters used by each boat on the cruising division.

World Cruising Club - Fleet Viewer

smackdaddy · 22-11-2014, 08:52

Agreed. I think the ARC is probably the best possible sample of boat performance and durability out there. It's one the of the few head-to-head tests of a wide variety of boats around. Hard to argue actual numbers.

Polux · 23-11-2014, 04:30

For the ones that are interested in production voyage boats, there is a new one on the market and one with innovative features, a Swing keel , a first if we don't consider the Pogo that is also a long range cruiser but much more sportive. This one would make a great boat to live aboard and a good sailing boat too. I posted about it on my blog:

smackdaddy · 25-11-2014, 12:45

Since it seems that many around here like to focus only the various failures we see in production boats - I assume to maintain the misguided notion that a) these failures don't actually ever happen in "better built", "superior", "bluewater" boats; and/or b) they don't want to know about such failures because it doesn't fit their narrative that production boats don't belong offshore but "bluewater" boats do because they keep you safe - I thought we should offer up some of the many example of failures in "bluewater" boats that have very little Plexus in them...

Let's start with the rudder failure and sinking of the Malo 45:

Sail-World.com : Sailing crew's battle to save yacht lost in the Indian Ocean

Quote:

A quick look through the small gap to look at the steering gear and I knew we had a big problem---the top of the rudder stock, which should turn but always remain vertical, was moving sideways in 2 dimensions sometimes quite violently. Clearly the rudder had detached from the skeg underneath the boat and was now acting like a pendulum---and there was an ingress of water.

Similar to Blue Pearl, eh?

Also, to make sure we are all crystal clear about the comparison, this is what John Neal has to say about the Malo in his Offshore Boats list that someone posted earlier in an "anti-production-boat" ramble:

Quote:

Highest quality offshore boats with good sailing performance. Attractive, reasonably priced. Strong company, good service.