Rudder Failures

[smackdaddy]

Here's a Hanse 371:



Rudder damaged - myHanse - Hanse Yachts Owners Forum - Page 1

[smackdaddy]

A Dehler 41:

ARC facts and figures | Yachting Monthly

Rudder failure and abandonment.

There was also a Hunter in 2002 and a Bavaria in 2006 in the ARC.

[Cheechako]

Some interesting pictures. It just goes to show you, you cant assume a boat is well built, just because it doesn't have a spade rudder. The glass on that (blue) broken skeg pictured seems to be maybe 1/8 thick? and then filled with left over mixed resin....
While an unsupported spade is limited by design limitations (how thick can the rudder/shaft be?) and as an unsupported beam; The supported rudder must be supported by something of substantial strength!

[smackdaddy]

Here's a Hanse 371 from 2005:



(Interesting advert for Hydrovane. At that point, can Hydrovane really help you? To be fair though, they mention the AP issue we discussed earlier.)

[smackdaddy]

Originally Posted by Cheechako

Some interesting pictures. It just goes to show you, you cant assume a boat is well built, just because it doesn't have a spade rudder. The glass on that broken skeg pictured seems to be maybe 1/8 thick? and then filled with left over mixed resin....

Bingo. Thank you.

Conversely, you can't assume a boat it "too lightly built" - especially if you are not seeing fleet-wide problems in those boats that are out there doing it.

Obviously, traditional "bluewater" assumptions are often misguided and need to be examined and/or challenged. Facts are good for that.

[smackdaddy]

A Contest 48, Y Not:

Sail-World.com : 1400 Miles Without a Rudder



Neal's take of this boat on his "bluewater" list:

More common in Europe. Well built, new boats are very
attractive and expensive.

[Cheechako]

Originally Posted by smackdaddy

Bingo. Thank you.

Conversely, you can't assume a boat it "too lightly built" - especially if you are not seeing fleet-wide problems in those boats that are out there doing it.

Obviously, traditional "bluewater" assumptions are often misguided and need to be examined and/or challenged. Facts are good for that.

I don't know, I think the limitations of design of a spade rudder speaks for itself..... not possible for it to be real strong unless you can live with a very very thick rudder!
But , yes.... it's all about how well the boat is built and what it sea state motion is.

[smackdaddy]

The Alden 54, Zulu, in last years Salty Dawg debacle:



Trouble aboard Zulu in the Gulf Stream | Cruising World

(And a Hans Christian 38 lost its rig in the SDR.)

[neilpride]

The Malo 45 is a exceptional well build boat, my guess its a fatal isolated case after thounsands of miles in a TW, i dont know how is made the skeg and lower pintle in the malo 45, or if the skeg is structural or sacrificial since in a one piece mold construction , glassing the inside of a skeg is kinda dificult and its better done in a half moulds construction, its a semi skeg rudder config and looking at the picture not my favorite setup, me think the lower pintle or heel plate goo leaving the rudder like a regular spade without any support inside since skeg rudders dont need a top support , im glad my old CSY have 3 strong points in the rudder, lower masive heel plate, bronze stuffing box, and top rudder stock suport.

Also lets say that the rudder made the structural damaged, rudders pintles, bearings , and anything in charge to keep the rudder married with the boat need regular inspections , maintenance..


The blue masive skeg broken in half its another example on how dificult is to glass properly this skegs, leaving the builder with the only option to pour inside a mush of resin in the mould , i dont know the builder of that boat but clearly the skeg is a piece of ****...


The Hanse i think is the well discuted case of a owner doing a Ap Ram installation in the rudder stock skipping all the Hanse recomendations about Lever Arm installation, not Hanse fault, Owner fault.

The pearson, hehe,,, when the last time this dudes do any maintenance in the bottom and rudder..

Alden and contest show again that rudders problems are not only confined to mass production boats...


Pics show the malo rudder and my CSY skeg rudder, the laminate thicknes in the skeg área are a solid 2 inches fiberglass, the heel plate its masive in bronze, the top of the rudder stock is troughbolted to a glassed bulkhead with a pillow bearing. even in a remote scenario i loose the lower bearing still i have my rudder supported by 2 points..

[Polux]

Originally Posted by smackdaddy

...
Similar to Blue Pearl, eh?
..

No, not similar at all. The Malo has a much safer skeg rudder

[colemj]

Bavaria 42

Mark

[smackdaddy]

Originally Posted by Polux

No, not similar at all. The Malo has a much safer skeg rudder

Heh-heh. Much safer. Right up until it fails.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Cheechako

I don't know, I think the limitations of design of a spade rudder speaks for itself..... not possible for it to be real strong unless you can live with a very very thick rudder!
But , yes.... it's all about how well the boat is built and what it sea state motion is.

Everything in boat design is a tradeoff, but the spade rudder is one of the most agonizing tradeoffs of all. You are right -- it simply cannot be as strong, and the higher aspect, the greater the lever arm available to rip it out of the bottom of your boat.

And at the very same time -- the spade rudder has incomparable hydrodynamic performance, making a huge difference especially upwind. A full skeg rudder works by being a brake. A spade rudder steers the water flow. No comparison whatsoever. And the higher the aspect ratio, the better it works

There's no right answer to that question. Oysters still use full skeg rudders -- that's one tradeoff. Some other high end makers (HR on most of their boats now) have gone to full spade rudders, albeit low aspect ones. Some boats (like mine, and Hylas) have a partial skeg.

And as Cheechako correctly pointed out -- even a full skeg rudder is not a guaranty that your rudder won't fall out. But no one should kid himself that a full skeg rudder carries the same risks as a spade rudder -- that's also not true.

[smackdaddy]

Originally Posted by neilpride

The Malo 45 is a exceptional well build boat, my guess its a fatal isolated case after thounsands of miles in a TW...

Well, of course. It couldn't possibly be anything else.

Originally Posted by neilpride

Alden and contest show again that rudders problems are not only confined to mass production boats...

Thank you. Actually most of the problems we're talking about are not only confined to mass production boats. But the continual drone is that these kinds of problems somehow "prove" that production boats are not fit for offshore sailing - when they happen on production boats. It's ridiculous.

For example, how many Alden 54s do you think are out there cruising bluewater right now? A very small handful? So what's the failure rate of Alden 54s right now when you take Zulu into account? Very, very high. A MUCH higher ratio than ANY mass production brand out there.



So does that mean we should all steer people away from Aldens because they are not fit for blue water? Only if one believes in "forum logic" and likes the look of foil on his head.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Cheechako

...
While an unsupported spade is limited by design limitations (how thick can the rudder/shaft be?) and as an unsupported beam; The supported rudder must be supported by something of substantial strength!

The only way to have a bullet proof rudder is on a full keel design. Very inefficient but bullet prove. What limits the strength of a skeg rudder or spade rudder is that it has to be sacrificial regarding the hull. The spade rudder or the skeg have to break or bend before the force made on the rudder or stock, multiplied by the arm (equal to its length), breaks the hull on the insertion point.