On Not Wearing A PFD

[Networker]

It can’t hurt to wear one. But it’s a personal choice.

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by Not a spy

This former whitewater rafter feels safer with a non inflatable pfd. My pfd makes me feel secure and rarely gets in my way sailing. I'll wear my inflatable pfd when I need to clip in.

Yep me too. As a guide for over 20 years, I got pretty comfortable with my various jackets, and was used to them being on once on the river, even in hot weather... and I was rowing so I needed to be able to move in it. The pockets are handy, my knife is ready in an instant (haven't needed it yet) AND importantly to me is I can swim in it. With my PFD I am able to wear my harness underneath. One might wonder why wear a PFD if you are always clipped in anyway. Sometimes you might not be clipped in. I put on my PFD when the conditions pipe up; I have a pretty small boat.

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by garyfdl

IMO drownings are a lot like motorcycle deaths. Most people drown because they aren't wearing a PFD; most people who die in motorcycle accidents aren't wearing a helmet.

Do you believe in statistics? Most people don't. (That's why lotteries and casinos make money)


Roughly half of motorcyclists wear helmets. The statistical value of helmets is well established, and there are various standards (DOT, Snell) for helmets and various levels of additional protection (full face, open) available. A close reading of accident literature reveals that motorcycles are dangerous for new riders (so we have the "motorcycle endorsement" on drivers licenses thanks to lobbyists from motorcycle manufacturers seeking to salt the statistics by claiming that "unlicensed riders" are the problem; nearly all new riders are unlicensed) and drunks (as with boating, alcohol accidents can have a motorcycling component).


Once you get past all that, the odds of being in an accident are, for experienced riders, about the same as for people driving cars. But motorcyclists are more likely to suffer serious injury. The likelihood of serious injury is reduced about 50% by helmet use, bringing it close to (but still greater than) the odds of serious injury driving a car.


For motorcycles, the statistics are clear on helmets, mainly because there's good data collection, lots of motorcyclists, and because half of them wear helmets so it's easy to see the difference.


For the record, I owned many motorcycles and rode many thousands of miles, and the only times I can remember riding without a helmet are when I gave my helmet to an unexpected passenger.


With boating, the statistics are much less clear. Frankly, the problem is that there aren't enough boaters who always wear a PFD to provide useful statistics, particularly once you exclude small, unstable craft. I've read the USCG reports and some of the state reports. Essentially there are a whole bunch of people who die without PFDs on, because people over the age of 10 largely don't wear a PFD unless they perceive that they are in a situation with heightened risk, e.g. paddlecraft, storms, boat that's sinking.


I think that the level flotation requirements that the USCG imposed in the 1970s for boats shorter than 20' probably saved more lives than the campaign to get people to wear PFDs routinely. (Having PFDs readily available on the boat being quite another matter for the many situations on larger craft where there is ample warning before a boat sinks or breaks up). But the statistics won't tell us because the campaign to get people to wear PFDs has largely failed, except for paddlers, young people, and a few safety-oriented people who aren't much at risk.


Coastal sailing/cruising isn't dangerous. Statistically it doesn't come close to the hazard in adventure sports -- mountain climbing, horseback riding, cave diving, BASE jumping, etc. For major passages I don't think anyone knows. Anecdotally there are lot of yachts that just disappear, but there are no statistics that I can find. Then again if you're on your way from the Azores to Bermuda and the keel falls off a PFD won't save you.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by garyfdl

IMO drownings are a lot like motorcycle deaths. Most people drown because they aren't wearing a PFD; most people who die in motorcycle accidents aren't wearing a helmet.

Please share the data that supports these assertions Gary. As a motorcyclist, and a sailor, I'd love to see them.

With regard to motorcycling, I do know that in Ontario, you are less likely to be involved in an accident while riding a motorcycle vs a four-wheeler. But the outcomes are much worse for motorcyclists involved in accidents.

I'd love to see the data on the benefits of helmet wearing. I always wear my helmet. But there are many US states where it is not required, so I assume there are easy comparative analysis. Is this your source? Love to see those links.

With regard to drownings associated with lifejackets, I've studied a lot of data related to cruiser mishaps. I've never seen your assertion established in these data, but I truly am open to learning.


To reiterate, I wear my inflatable while underway. I also wear a motorcycle helmet. This is because the cost-benefit of the assessed risk makes sense. In the case of a Type I PFD, it doesn't make sense to me for normal cruising activities.

[grantmc]

Here's an advert about wearing PFDs you might enjoy. It appeared on TV here in New Zealand about 10 years ago. It's corny and sort of based on Miami Vice.
https://www.facebook.com/saferboatin...91060437805932

[ParL]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Actually, in colder waters where I've mostly cruised, the PFD is really just so you can find the body. But I do wear my inflatable most of the time.

That is where the old style vest/waistcoat style PFDs had a use: they added insulation.



I also come from a canoeing background, and my current paddling PFD -- Astral GreenJacket -- does not constrict movements at all, has a big pocket, somewhere to warm hands and provides protection if I happen to bounce into things. It does have bulk, and wearing it on a small sailboat would be quite annoying, but if I thought I was going to be thrown into a rocky shoreline I would love to have that one.

[Gary Mc]

Questions, I am getting ready for an ocean crossing and getting my gear ready.


I have a Mustang inflatable with harness, I bought it in 2013 so the arming kit is past it's 5 year suggested life span. I will be re-arming but hey are hard to find right now. Do you all keep these up to date?


The skipper has suggested that the leg harness would be a worthwhile addition, how many of you use them?


I have been meaning to jump in and experience the actually inflation and see how you float, who has tried that? I suspect that the inflated "balloon" will be up around your head and maybe some what constricting?


Any experience trying this? A bit cold where I am to try this right now.

And lastly the Mustang does not really have a way to install a strobe, we have sewn velcro onto the edge of the balloon to hold the strobe, they should have a better method.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by ParL

That is where the old style vest/waistcoat style PFDs had a use: they added insulation.

Indeed. That's a good reason to wear a full-size lifejacket (Type I PFD). But even in cold paddling waters, they can get pretty hot pretty fast. That's why my canoeing jacket remained close by, but not worn most of the time.

Originally Posted by ParL

I also come from a canoeing background, and my current paddling PFD -- Astral GreenJacket -- does not constrict movements at all, has a big pocket, somewhere to warm hands and provides protection if I happen to bounce into things. It does have bulk, and wearing it on a small sailboat would be quite annoying, but if I thought I was going to be thrown into a rocky shoreline I would love to have that one.

This was kinda the point I made in my opening comments on this thread. The query about the Pardey's not wearing lifejackets had to be taken in context. They cruised long before the advent of modern, comfortable PFDs, and most especially the inflatable style that most of us wear now.

I started my canoe tripping life when the only option were full jackets, or ridiculous key-hole versions. We carried jackets, but only donned them when facing higher risk situations: Class II or above raps, large open water crossings in rough conditions, or really crappy weather. Most of the time they made for great knee pads.

My point, if I have a point, is that people should actually think about their real level of risk, and of course make a cost-benefit analysis to decide what is needed. I get why there are simple, arbitrary rules that encourage people NOT to think for themselves ... I just prefer (in this case) to actually make my own risk assessment.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Gary Mc

Questions, I am getting ready for an ocean crossing and getting my gear ready.

I have a Mustang inflatable with harness, I bought it in 2013 so the arming kit is past it's 5 year suggested life span. I will be re-arming but hey are hard to find right now. Do you all keep these up to date?

The skipper has suggested that the leg harness would be a worthwhile addition, how many of you use them?

I have been meaning to jump in and experience the actually inflation and see how you float, who has tried that? I suspect that the inflated "balloon" will be up around your head and maybe some what constricting?

Any experience trying this? A bit cold where I am to try this right now.

And lastly the Mustang does not really have a way to install a strobe, we have sewn velcro onto the edge of the balloon to hold the strobe, they should have a better method.

Gary, I suspect I have a similar, or even older, Mustang as yours. I have a stock of re-arming kits, and have tested mine a number of times (sometimes accidentally ). I do tend to keep it somewhat up-to-date, although I've never yet had an out-of-date one fail.

Mine does indeed "balloon" around my neck, and I would definitely recommend a crotch strap of some sort.

I retro-installed a water-activated floating strobe that I have wrapped in the left fold of the jacket. It's tied on with a short line, and should activate in the event of immersion. I've never tested this part.

[Breaking Waves]

Originally Posted by Gary Mc

The skipper has suggested that the leg harness would be a worthwhile addition, how many of you use them?

leg/crotch strap is reasonably important. There have been several high-profile fatalities with people wearing inflated pfd but not using (or using but something breaks, buckles or bladder hold downs) crotch straps.

Unfortunately, most of the leg/crotch straps are poorly designed, and they add an additional step to getting in and out of the pfd, and thus relatively few people use them (a pocket to stow the crotch straps out of the way is a 'value added feature' on some models).

[desodave]

"I have a Mustang inflatable with harness, I bought it in 2013 so the arming kit is past it's 5 year suggested life span. I will be re-arming but hey are hard to find right now. Do you all keep these up to date?"


I suspect you're referring to the hydrostatic re-arm kit ... I'm waiting for 2 of them to re-arm two new to me M3154's that hold air but are beyond the 5 year mark (they came with the boat). I will probably do so again in 5 years if they are still serviceable. With my older automatics I inflate them for 24 hrs before the season and change bobbins frequently

[geoff3nebel]

It really is personal choice. I am often a solo sailor and if I go over the side way out in the Atlantic it’s only a matter of time before I drown. Do I remain floating for 3 or 4, perhaps even 7 days before lack of water finishes me off in the hope that a passing vessel might see me? Or bite the bullet, reflect that I’ve not had too bad a life, and go under?
I’ve crossed the Atlantic, Indian Ocean, Red Sea, the Med, Biscay and not worn a pfd. When it’s got rough I’ve worn a harness with a short strop when leaving the cockpit.

[garyfdl]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Please share the data that supports these assertions Gary. As a motorcyclist, and a sailor, I'd love to see them.

Sorry Mike, no hard data. Just opinion. Based of years of hearing about motorcycle accidents on the news where they say "the rider(s) was/were not wearing a helmet(s)". Likewise drownings, where they say the boater(s) was/were not wearing a PFD(s).

[garyfdl]

Originally Posted by Jammer

Do you believe in statistics?

Yes, I do. Thanks for making my point.

[Lodesman]

Might be a good time to reiterate the 1-10-1 rule: https://csbc.ca/en/1-10-1-principle