Multihull in distress.

[boatman61]

People keep talking about 'flex compensation' in their catamarans.. there is no 'Flex' in a production catamaran.. they are rigid build boats..
There's only one designer that builds flex into his boats and that's James Wharram.. flexible beams and rigs with rope/webbing lashing which acts as a shock absorber..
As for insurers.. to the best of my knowledge they advise on a survey after 10years on stainless rigging as it is a recognised weak point.. or maybe its just Pantaenius, but they require a full survey of hull and rig every so many years and all faults rectified before they will continue full cover.
One also requires the above for them to insure a new purchase/application for full cover.
As for the cheapo house insurance companies who hand out cover in the States to boost their revenue by insuring weekend sailors who play locally that's something else..
I'm talking about Marine Insurance Specialists.. like Marine lawyers and Mud lawyers.. as different as chalk to cheese.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by neilpride

Its in AUS diferent? Your insurance comp let you sailing with the rigging older than 7 years?

Copy of clause in the insurance for my Belize:

[neilpride]

Originally Posted by yeloya

If I'd said the following we would all agree I think and close this endless discussions trying to convince everybody that our opinions wins over another one:

-Leopard sale rep has said that the rig would go down before the boat flips. With my experience I don't see this likely as some other forumers. If anybody believes in, this might be a good "fuse" and they buy a Leopard. No problem.
-Some forumers insist that the rig loads cannot be calculated and they are designed on trial an error. I don't believe it as an engineer but if some people does, let it be this way..
-Some says that multi's rigging is more vulnerable hence they should be replaced every 7 years whilst for monos this is 10 years. I say that the multi's rigging is subjet to more load hence designed stronger. Therefore if there is any time span for rigging it should be more or less equal.
-Neilpride is saying that the riggings should be replaced every 7 or 10 years and insurers force this. I am saying that in 30 years in this part of the med I have never seen any dismated boat whether mono or cat. Our boats are fully insured and in this 30 years I've just seen two cats with a broken boom. (one Antares, one Fidji 39 , both as a result of accidental gybing)
-I wish everybody replaced their riggings every 7 or 10 years, half of our business would have been doing this. And we did none, just unstepped masts in a few occasions (for inspection, grounding, collision, etc) and didn't replace any of them. ,They were all repaired, wires,rod terminals or forestay changed, etc.
-We also had a Lavezzi 40 cat with a huge genneaker (not a genoa or gib) unfurled accidentally in 45 kts of gust. He did neither flipped over nor had his 15 years old rigging down.

Everyone is expressing his own view and sharing their experience here, either we take it or ignore it. No need to blame each other .

Happy wekkend to all..

Yeloya

Yeloya, i could agree in some points but, ok, you say your fleet is full insured for the past of 30 years with Pantaenius? and if i understand you make regular inspections or repairs in regular basis, is this regular rigging work in a regular basis? and the winning prize question could be, Pantaenius insure a multihull with a 30 years old rigging? inspected or not?

I doubt very much a swage terminal last for 30 years in a chárter boat, or in a private boat, 20 years could be terminal life span, 15 to much for peace of mind ... now if you change rigging in regular basis the counter is back to 0 and the insurance comp is happy if you provide the bills and a rigger report.. Thats what we do very often, bosum chair and a full rigging inspection , if the swages , tangs, wires, furler etc ,, are in great visual condition a report is made for the insurance, we dont warrant any inspection in a multihull in a 7 to 10 years interval without a previous rig record, i hear very often this question, do you think i can set across the pond to Azores for example with the rigging in this condition? no previous record, owner dont have a clue when the rigging is replaced in the past, visual inspection is ok but the rigging looks tired and old..

As many production catamarans come with swaged wire terminals and the fact that those wires always fail at the swage terminal is very hard to determine if a old swage is healty inside , microcracks at the tip ends of the terminals are a warning sign, DYE test reveal some isues, some banana form reveal a swage terminal toasted.. but also i have a bunch of this swage terminals broken at the pin eye without a visual warning or problem, saying that most production multihulls come from the Factory with lots of buggs, cap shrouds in a multi are subject to a lot of stress despite some trolls claiming the contrary, and if they are oversized or not is very subjective, typical caps thicknes in a 40 ft production multi is 5,16 or 12 mm average, like in many production monohulls.... So i wonder how you guys determine if a 10 years old swage terminal is ok or not despite a visual inspection is ok.. Cheers Yeloya.

[smj]

So if one has a different opinion to yours they are automatically trolls?


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by senormechanico

I will.

The definition of an OBOE, a musical instrument:

It's an ill wind that nobody blows good.

Ha, ha. And what in the world do you know about oboes?

[MNGator]

This thread reminds me f the old saying "I was watching a fight and a hockey game broke out". But in this case I was reading about an unfortunate sailor who lost his boat and an all cat sick thread broke out.

Maybe the mods should change the thread title to ALL multis in distress...

[44'cruisingcat]

Is it possible that riggers don't know everything?

Here's some advice friends of ours were given when they had some of their standing rigging replaced with synthetic rope:

1- Rope rigging will last forever. It will never need replacing.

2- Because your boat is now so much lighter, you need to reef 5 -10 kts sooner.

3- Everybody should always sail with 1 or 2 turns of sail on the furler, as it makes it much stronger.

[JPA Cate]

Just like all the other people in the world, not all riggers are created equal. All of us who go to them for help with our rigs know that, and we are choosy about whom we will trust.

Personally, i am glad neilpride is around CF. He often posts useful tidbits.

To smj and 44'cruising cat, & Jedi: if you could lighten up a bit, and consider how this thread has gone, perhaps you will notice all the unnecessary vituperation. Frankly, it is this bickering that has driven away CF members. It isn't too difficult to manage to be polite and forceful at the same time.

Ann

[lateral]

Fact....or "alternate" fact?
Truth, Damn truth & statistics.
Half truths.

Well, I'll let this freudian, slip.
I wish I had a catamaran; then my wife would come sailing.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate

Just like all the other people in the world, not all riggers are created equal. All of us who go to them for help with our rigs know that, and we are choosy about whom we will trust.

Personally, i am glad neilpride is around CF. He often posts useful tidbits.

To smj and 44'cruising cat, & Jedi: if you could lighten up a bit, and consider how this thread has gone, perhaps you will notice all the unnecessary vituperation. Frankly, it is this bickering that has driven away CF members. It isn't too difficult to manage to be polite and forceful at the same time.

Ann

Lighten up? I've been grinning like a maniac the whole time on this thread.

Some of the garbage that's been posted is just hilarious!

Guess it doesn't come across in the written word, but I gave up taking the mono guys in multihull threads seriously ages ago. They have so little idea, it amazes me some of them can operate a keyboard!

And it's funny to see them getting so worked up, over something that really shouldn't concern them....

[robbievardon]

I don*t know about Spain, but in UK the crew of a Lifeboat can make a claim against owner/Insurance Co of a vessel they have recovered but must pay all costs relating to the time they "used" the lifeboat. Talking cranes/lifts there is no requirement to lift the entire cat. Patch the hole from inside or out then lift the damaged hull till it is on water line then pump out/lift in unison till it floats on its own. When I started we were taught how to use dunnage to cover a hole on cargo boats at sea so a scaled down version still works on small boats today. Neil Pride, when I worked on the North Sea Oil platforms, a company started up producing air bags capable of lifting 150,000 ton concrete oil platforms which as a result of a design fault/hydrographic error settled too low in the water to allow them to be towed from Scotland to the North sea!!!! 2 possible solutions, Blow off umpteen feet of platform, or try attaching several hundred custom made air bags, inflate and hope for the best. It actually worked and I still have the pics of a one off unusual job. Sawbonz, not sure if the Costa Cordia will disprove your comment, payout for the value of the ship is unlikely to match the costs of removal and breaking which currently is running at 9 figure cost and may take a further 2 years + to complete. High price for the Captain too sentenced to 16 years 1 month prison for abandoning his clients and crew. 1 appeal already dismissed.

[neilpride]

Originally Posted by robbievardon

I don*t know about Spain, but in UK the crew of a Lifeboat can make a claim against owner/Insurance Co of a vessel they have recovered but must pay all costs relating to the time they "used" the lifeboat. Talking cranes/lifts there is no requirement to lift the entire cat. Patch the hole from inside or out then lift the damaged hull till it is on water line then pump out/lift in unison till it floats on its own. When I started we were taught how to use dunnage to cover a hole on cargo boats at sea so a scaled down version still works on small boats today. Neil Pride, when I worked on the North Sea Oil platforms, a company started up producing air bags capable of lifting 150,000 ton concrete oil platforms which as a result of a design fault/hydrographic error settled too low in the water to allow them to be towed from Scotland to the North sea!!!! 2 possible solutions, Blow off umpteen feet of platform, or try attaching several hundred custom made air bags, inflate and hope for the best. It actually worked and I still have the pics of a one off unusual job. Sawbonz, not sure if the Costa Cordia will disprove your comment, payout for the value of the ship is unlikely to match the costs of removal and breaking which currently is running at 9 figure cost and may take a further 2 years + to complete. High price for the Captain too sentenced to 16 years 1 month prison for abandoning his clients and crew. 1 appeal already dismissed.

Yes i believe with lift air bags its posible, probably send a diver found the wáter ingress spot and lift it up or lift it up with the bags and patch the wáter ingress with the boat level.. They already lift the big motoryacht sunked at Andraitx....

[s/v Jedi]

About the argument that loading is equal because the cat has stronger rigging: this is true for the standard calculations, i.e. based on righting moment. As the cat has a much higher righting moment RM, the rigging needs to be stronger.

But that argument completely skips the dynamic (shock) loading. The shock loading is much higher on a cat (which is why all the cats flipped in '76 when the rigs were based on the RM calculations as done for mono's) as James Wharram explains). If a cat has a 6x as high initial stability, then the dynamic load is multiplied by 6, i.e. there is no "heeling-shockbreaker". I am not sure but think a cat with same sail area as a mono has much more than 6x initial stability. This is why so many prefer a cat

The life span of rigging is much more dependent on dynamic load than the static load and this is why the standing rigging and spars on a cat need replacement sooner than on a mono.

And BTW, swaged terminals just shouldn't be used at the lower end of the shrouds. Only use them at the upper end, if at all.

[lateral]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

And BTW, swaged terminals just shouldn't be used at the lower end of the shrouds. Only use them at the upper end, if at all.

What is your favoured terminal?

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

The life span of rigging is much more dependent on dynamic load than the static load and this is why the standing rigging and spars on a cat need replacement sooner than on a mono.

Or you can simply design or the higher loads and get a similar lifespan.

Righting moment is only one consideration (mono or cat) not the be all end all.