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brownoarsman · 09-03-2017, 17:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by tp12

A quote from a journalist.... so this should therefore be written in a manual for the boat. Or in some sort of factory documentation, if we're actually true. No?

So where's that?

I'll have a look and see.

Well, as most sailing journals get criticized for being mouthpieces for the manufacturers ...

Anyways, it's a journal article from 1984, during the production run of the heavenly twins, posted on the owners association website which is as close as you'll get to the manufacturer for that particular catamaran these days. Highly believable the manufacturer used it in sales material, either verbally as kenomac has told for a different cat, or possibly in print.

Still waiting on your sources.

**Cotemar** · 09-03-2017, 17:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by tp12

Any proof of this 'designed to lose your mast' stuff?

Yes!!!!!
Yes!!!!!
Yes!!!!!
Yes!!!!!
Yes!!!!!
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lateral · 09-03-2017, 17:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by robert sailor

So what happens to your theory when you look at Cats that flipped?

That 'cos the owner up-spec'd the rigging as they preferred capsizing to a hole in a hull or head.

tp12 · 09-03-2017, 17:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by brownoarsman

Well, as most sailing journals get criticized for being mouthpieces for the manufacturers ...

Anyways, it's a journal article from 1984, during the production run of the heavenly twins, posted on the owners association website which is as close as you'll get to the manufacturer for that particular catamaran these days. Highly believable the manufacturer used it in sales material, either verbally as kenomac has told for a different cat, or possibly in print.

Still waiting on your sources.

Read my last post. A magazine article on an association site, which also looks like it's contradicting itself, does not constitute proof. There may yet be proof of it, I'm still looking. Any help on that? Any other documentation on the Heavenly Twins boat?

My sources for what? I didn't make the claim. I've already given the responses from the manufacturers and rigger that I spoke to. It doesn't happen.

At the end of the day, if it's true that production cat builders, or any cat builders, engineer fuses into their rigging there'll be evidence of that in some sort of manufacturing, engineering or operations documentation from a manufacturer. Let's see that and put this to bed.

brownoarsman · 09-03-2017, 17:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by tp12

So, further to my last post quoting you...the stability page on the heavenly twins site talks about wind speed for lifting a hull yet strangely omits this 'designed in safety feature' of the mast coming down - http://www.heavenlytwins.co.uk/master.php (not a direct link I don't think, click Stability

Or, read this quote from the site

Why not mention this safety feature?

What's the deal with Heavenly Twins? Were they a production boat or a design you could buy and build? Anyone have any further documentation on them? I'll keep looking...

I believe that they are using a rote formula for calculating stability. I believe that is being done by the owners' association, not by the manufacturer.

Heavenly twins are/were a fairly remarkable little catamaran manufactured in Great Britain and known for being fairly robust for their size and acceptable small circumnavigators. They stopped production in the early 90's I believe.

Not my favorite small cat, I would prefer an Iroquois, but I recognize their sturdiness; such as rudders integrated into the hulls to prevent snags. Almost bought one in Florida a couple of years ago but went mono instead for price reasons.

tp12 · 09-03-2017, 17:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cotemar

Yes!!!!!

Yes!!!!!

Yes!!!!!

Yes!!!!!

Yes!!!!!

.

.

You don't seem to understand what proof is. The capsized multi above shows the hole in your 'proof'.

Let's see some manufacturers documentation describing their 'engineered fuse safety feature'

I'll even help you and keep looking myself.

tp12 · 09-03-2017, 17:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by brownoarsman

I believe that they are using a rote formula for calculating stability. I believe that is being done by the owners' association, not by the manufacturer.

Heavenly twins are/were a fairly remarkable little catamaran manufactured in Great Britain and known for being fairly robust for their size and acceptable small circumnavigators. They stopped production in the early 90's I believe.

Not my favorite small cat, I would prefer an Iroquois, but I recognize their sturdiness; such as rudders integrated into the hulls to prevent snags. Almost bought one in Florida a couple of years ago but went mono instead for price reasons.

Fair enough. Still seems strange that the association wouldn't mention this safety feature on their stability page. I would have thought it would be a USP.

I'll keep searching, thanks for your response.

**Cotemar** · 09-03-2017, 18:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by robert sailor

So what happens to your theory when you look at Cats that flipped?

Performance catamarans are designed with a different Safety Sail Plan / Reefing Chart.

Performance catamarans are designed NOT TO LOSE THEIR MAST

They are designed to fly a hull, so the design is TOTALLY DIFFERENT than a Cruising Catamaran.

Cruising Catamarans are designed to lose their mast if they have FULL SAILS UP AT 50 KNOTS.

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tp12 · 09-03-2017, 18:05

So you consider cruising catamarans designed at the performance end of the spectrum to not be 'cruising catamarans' but only 'performance catamarans'? It might help us to know your definitions of how this all works. Where is this line drawn? It might help us also to know which manufacturers, or even specific models, which are designed with the fuse.

You do realise you posted pictures of two dismasted gunboats above but are now saying that the performance cats have a fuse? Is a gunboat a performance cat?

Seriously....

**boatman61** · 09-03-2017, 18:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cotemar

Performance catamarans are designed with a different Safety Sail Plan / Reefing Chart.

They are designed to fly a hull, so the design is TOTALLY DIFFERENT than a Cruising Catamaran
.
.

The Gunboat mid capsize I'll grant you.. but I don't think the other three are 'Performance Cats'..

brownoarsman · 09-03-2017, 18:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by tp12

Fair enough. Still seems strange that the association wouldn't mention this safety feature on their stability page. I would have thought it would be a USP.

I'll keep searching, thanks for your response.

I would think that you'd most likely find reference to it in sales material, like what kenomac experienced. A huge psychological barrier for a lot of potential cat buyers is the capsize risk. So, I wouldn't be surprised to see manufacturers making this claim in the sales literature. Whether or not that's believable is a whole different story. For what it's worth, only one reported capsize of a twins and in the conditions he was in I'm not sure you can say whether wind or wave was the primary cause. Not sure if there's a count of the number of rig failures

I'm not sure how the fuse theory would come across in the operations manual: "don't worry about reefing, you're more likely to lose your rig than capsize in high winds." Better to provide the reefing schedule per fountaine pajot.

All sales material is suspect though, of course. Not trusting the sales people or the engineers, I like to remove at least one bolt from my chain plates, cut into my standing rigging a little, and encourage rust to grow on my shroud terminals just to make sure the rig goes first. I just hate getting my feet wet!

Good luck on your search!

**Cotemar** · 09-03-2017, 18:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by boatman61

The Gunboat mid capsize I'll grant you.. but I don't think the other three are 'Performance Cats'..

All your pictures show Performance Catamarans.

All the pictorial facts agree.

tp12 · 09-03-2017, 18:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by brownoarsman

I would think that you'd most likely find reference to it in sales material, like what kenomac experienced. A huge psychological barrier for a lot of potential cat buyers is the capsize risk. So, I wouldn't be surprised to see manufacturers making this claim in the sales literature.

Well, he's relaying what he heard, not actual sales material. I agree, it would be a huge selling point to those who fear capsize. And given the 'traditional views' that appear so often regarding how cats are 'so prone' to capsize you'd think a big deal would be made of such a feature. But, alas, I have found none and no one has posted any. There's plenty of people attending boat shows yet no one has mentioned it...

Quote:

Whether or not that's believable is a whole different story. For what it's worth, only one reported capsize of a twins and in the conditions he was in I'm not sure you can say whether wind or wave was the primary cause. Not sure if there's a count of the number of rig failures

I'm not sure how the fuse theory would come across in the operations manual: "don't worry about reefing, you're more likely to lose your rig than capsize in high winds." Better to provide the reefing schedule per fountaine pajot.

All sales material is suspect though, of course. Not trusting the sales people or the engineers, I like to remove at least one bolt from my chain plates, cut into my standing rigging a little, and encourage rust to grow on my shroud terminals just to make sure the rig goes first. I just hate getting my feet wet!

Good luck on your search!

Thanks!