More "cruisers" violate borders and more on S/V Zatara

[Discovery 15797]

Originally Posted by ewishki

You keep asking for evidence to the contrary but other than a news article (opinion piece) you also have no evidence. No one here knows the truth other than SV Zatara and the Tonga officials. Considering he is there and not arrested, fined, in jail, etc I would have to use the very reliable "actions vs words" scenario.

Your OP references something from mid March about Zatara not being allowed in Tonga. That was 4 months ago. 4 months in Covid era is a decade.

Perhaps you failed to read the specific email from Tonga's Minister of Health Dr ‘Amelia Afuha’amango Tu’ipulotu that Zatara posted on the Sailing Zatara site that specifically states...

"All private yachts will not be granted entry to the Kingdom until further notice..."

The email was from from March 18. Can you cite a reputable source that suggests Tonga changed it's position on allowing private yachts to enter it's Kingdom since then?

Wait...

I'll save you some time....Tonga is still closed to private yachts.

I am a little saddened that you are unable to discern news from opinion.

Finally, the evidence I cited were UN documents (to correct the misconception of jurisdiction), a news source citing the email from the Minister of Health to Whitaker, and Whitakers own words.

The fact that he was not arrested does not negate the fact that he left New Zealand with no clear destination (in his own words), he entered Tongan territory against the direction of the Minister of Health, and headed for Fiji without completing the necessary paperwork in advance. To me this illustrates the man's recklessness and disregard for the authorities which may reflect poorly on those who follow; however I suspect Whitaker is in it for Whitaker and could care less about the places he travels as long as he makes a buck.

[NPCampbell]

Originally Posted by wingssail

I think that attitude is disgusting and further more it is dishonest.

If you sail directly from New Zealand to Fiji (or Tonga, or Minerva reef) you are fooling no one when you say, "Oh I just decided on Fiji as I was happening to arrive at their 12 mile limit." If Fiji says, "You have to apply before you begin your trip to our country" than your arrogant subterfuge is just that, and you have no place in the cruising community.

And the same applied to Zatara, who knew Tonga was not permitting foreign vessels to enter their country, yet they proceeded anyhow, and their tracker shows a direct course to Minervia Reef, so it was not a last minute decision, and claiming that they needed to wait for weather is disingenuous. The fact that the Tongan patrol vessel did not arrest them shows tells more about Tongan generosity towards their fellow man than it validates the Zataras decision.

My view of this also applies to those who claim a boat breakdown as an excuse to enter and stay (or over stay) in a port or country. It fools no one and the negative impression it leaves with the foreign officials is not easily erased.

If I was given the choice of staying in New Zealand where the average temp hovers around 50 or LEGALLY sailing out and then changing my heading to the first island that opens I would choose the latter every time. I think what they did was smart, legal, and there was nothing dishonest about it.

On the other hand, faking a boat break down to extend safe harbor is illegal and dishonest.

[NPCampbell]

Originally Posted by 15797Discovery

You are relying on a blog for truth?

Here is a good source

LOL. Other than the two blogs that are quoted in that link, name one thing in that article that disputes anything I said. They legally sailed for Tonga ... because they are allowed to. In international waters I can sail to any country I want. The target country also has every right to deny my entry ... which they did after providing temporary safe harbor to several boats in the reef area.

Originally Posted by 15797Discovery

This seems pretty clear to me...and it seems he understood as well.

Me too!

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by NPCampbell

If I was given the choice of staying in New Zealand where the average temp hovers around 50 or LEGALLY sailing out and then changing my heading to the first island that opens I would choose the latter every time. I think what they did was smart, legal, and there was nothing dishonest about it.

On the other hand, faking a boat break down to extend safe harbor is illegal and dishonest.

Which bit of NZ has an average temp hovering around 50º F.. and when??

Nothing illegal about their manner of leaving NZ... ships clear out for 'High Seas' all the time ... especially the fishing fleets.... and LEFO is or at least was a common destination.
I've always cleared out for a named port but more than once have fetched up somewhere different... sometimes closer... sometimes further...

It is also smart, legal, and there is nothing dishonest about a country denying people entry during a pandemic.

Leaving NZ knowing Tonga's borders were closed to his yacht and crew and without complying with Fijian requirements suggests he was hoping to 'game' the system , this reflects poorly on him.

It appears that he is now in Fiji.... I look forward to this week's update.

He has burnt his bridges.... can't go to Tonga, Am Samoa, or Australia..... or back to NZ... oh dear.

I would far rather an Auckland winter than the cyclone season in Fiji.

[jimbunyard]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

Which bit of NZ has an average temp hovering around 50º F.. and when??

Nothing illegal about their manner of leaving NZ... ships clear out for 'High Seas' all the time ... especially the fishing fleets.... and LEFO is or at least was a common destination.
I've always cleared out for a named port but more than once have fetched up somewhere different... sometimes closer... sometimes further...

It is also smart, legal, and there is nothing dishonest about a country denying people entry during a pandemic.

Leaving NZ knowing Tonga's borders were closed to his yacht and crew and without complying with Fijian requirements suggests he was hoping to 'game' the system , this reflects poorly on him.

It appears that he is now in Fiji.... I look forward to this week's update.

He has burnt his bridges.... can't go to Tonga, Am Samoa, or Australia..... or back to NZ... oh dear.

I would far rather an Auckland winter than the cyclone season in Fiji.

Well he may be, perhaps inadvertantly, providing an education for his kids.

From the couple of videos I could stand to watch, certainly seems they need it, though if they go through or near a cyclone, or even weather one on the island, I hope an 'education' is the worst they get.

[NPCampbell]

Originally Posted by Discovery 15797

Most Zarpe require a planned destination port.

Yup and plans change.

Originally Posted by Discovery 15797

Contrary to what you want to believe...you may not embark for any country at any time. Many countries require a Zarpe prior to departure and upon arrival.

Sure you can. You are telling me that once Zatara cleared NZ with port xxx as their destination port they can't change their plans? Of course they can, they did, it's legal and it happens all the time.

Originally Posted by Discovery 15797

If you are on your way to Hawaii, you cannot just decide to stop at Fiji. That's not how it works. If you are a distress vessel you can ask for assistance; but you can't decide..."oh, this looks like a nice place...I think I'll drop my anchor here for awhile."

... and no one is saying this. I can sail towards any country I want ... and every country has the right to deny you entry into their country and require you to clear their customs, observe a quarantine, fill out the correct paper work, allow time for processing, etc before granting you entry.

Originally Posted by Discovery 15797

Oh..and after specifically pointing out that Whittaker was told not to enter Tonga, he acknowledged that message and he did so anyway you still fail to see how he violated any rules...well...there's really nothing else to say is there?

Other than the correct facts ... Whittaker was absolutely told not to enter Tonga. He did not however "enter anyways". 12 miles offshore of Tonga he spoke with the Tongan Navy and was granted permission to stay at the reef. They could have denied him and he would have been SOL and had to continue on his merry way. But they didn't. It's legal and evidently routine considering there were other sailboats there at the time doing the same thing. If someone has real facts that indicate otherwise then please share them.

[StuM]

Assuming that he contacted them when 12 miles away (evidence?) it would be more accurate to say:

Originally Posted by NPCampbell

12 miles offshore of from two remote mid--ocean reefs 260 NM from Tonga which Tonga claims jurisdiction over he spoke with the Tongan Navy and was granted permission to stay at the reef.

[fivecapes]

Originally Posted by StuM

If you're sitting out a quarantine period with no sign of sickness, you only need one Q flag.

https://www.noonsite.com/flag-etiquette/

So far, Noonsite, Yokohama, Alaska disagree.

[Fore and Aft]

Like everything Corona and we have no idea of the long term effects it is going to have on our heallth.
That's how I feel about these cowboys floating around the Pacific, no one really knows the long term effects of their cavalier attitude and what the future consequences are for cruisers when it comes to cruising.
Hopefully Dale T can get the inside story when he gets to Fiji and let us all know?
I see Fiji finally banned public flogging in 2015ish maybe they might bring it back to sort out a few wayward sailors!
Cheers

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by fivecapes

https://www.noonsite.com/flag-etiquette/

So far, Noonsite, Yokohama, Alaska disagree.

That makes sense to this simple sailorman...

World of difference between turning up and requesting free pratique because you say your ship is healthy....

And the port authorities saying 'Well you look well enough but how about you just go and park in the quarantine anchorage for a week just to make sure'.

'But we are healthy!!'

'Oh dear... naughty corner for you...no ..your request for free pratique is denied... you are now under quarantine... Q flag down...L flag up... off you go...'

[ewishki]

Originally Posted by Discovery 15797

Perhaps you failed to read the specific email from Tonga's Minister of Health Dr ‘Amelia Afuha’amango Tu’ipulotu that Zatara posted on the Sailing Zatara site that specifically states...



The email was from from March 18. Can you cite a reputable source that suggests Tonga changed it's position on allowing private yachts to enter it's Kingdom since then?

Wait...

I'll save you some time....Tonga is still closed to private yachts.

I am a little saddened that you are unable to discern news from opinion.

Finally, the evidence I cited were UN documents (to correct the misconception of jurisdiction), a news source citing the email from the Minister of Health to Whitaker, and Whitakers own words.

The fact that he was not arrested does not negate the fact that he left New Zealand with no clear destination (in his own words), he entered Tongan territory against the direction of the Minister of Health, and headed for Fiji without completing the necessary paperwork in advance. To me this illustrates the man's recklessness and disregard for the authorities which may reflect poorly on those who follow; however I suspect Whitaker is in it for Whitaker and could care less about the places he travels as long as he makes a buck.

Once again, your proof is an email from March 18th. Do you realize the majority of the Covid outbreak had not even happened yet at that point. As I stated, 4 months in Covid era is an eternity.

Once again, your proof is here say at best. Blog posts, a media opinion piece. Get us some recorded radio or phone calls between Zatara and Tonga or up to date relevant correspondence between Zatara and Tonga/Fiji or wherever.

Literally, all but maybe the 18th email would get thrown out in any court of law.

And once again, are they in jail? Were they fined? Do they face any charges? Until you can undeniably prove those to have happened, then this is all opinion. No one here knows for a fact. Its opinion, which you are entitled to, but it should not be posted as any sort of fact.

Enough said until actual proof comes out.

BTW that dude is loaded. I don't think he really cares about making a buck, he is more about principle. The one thing with Keith is you know where he stands. You may or may not like that, and thats everyones right to their own opinion. But at least he puts it all out there. Most people don't know how to deal with real people like him.

[ewishki]

Originally Posted by NPCampbell

If someone has real facts that indicate otherwise then please share them.

This!

[NaClyDog]

Originally Posted by ewishki

BTW that dude is loaded. I don't think he really cares about making a buck, he is more about principle. The one thing with Keith is you know where he stands.

Speaking of proof, do you have any proof of this?


Many people involved in aviation in his past business circles would disagree with this statement.


Being good at marketing does not always translate into being good at business.

[ewishki]

Originally Posted by NaClyDog

Speaking of proof, do you have any proof of this?


Many people involved in aviation in his past business circles would disagree with this statement.


Being good at marketing does not always translate into being good at business.

This is all pretty easy to research online. I know more than what is just online but will leave it at that. Start with his Linkedin if you are truly interested.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by fivecapes

https://covid19.alaska.gov/wp-conten...rcial-Fish.pdf

III. Self quarantine section h. on page 3
Vessels are required to fly a “Lima” flag or similar yellow and black pennant if they have any crew on board still under self quarantine.

Thanks. Curious as to how a visiting fishing vessel would know about this. Written by doctors, not mariners.

Originally Posted by fivecapes

https://www.noonsite.com/flag-etiquette/

So far, Noonsite, Yokohama, Alaska disagree.

Seems there's some historic use of LIMA as a quarantine flag, and I guess there's nothing stopping local authorities from using it for that purpose, but it would be less confusing if they would follow the international code. That said there is apparently a newer (2005) version of InterCo - maybe it uses L that way. Anyone have a copy?