Moody 49 lost on bar at Bahia del Sol, El Salvador

[hpeer]

It seems folks kinda missed a point I was trying to make above.

We are a community, and generally we have decent ways of communicating difficulties. That is at least true for the Bahamas, East Caribbean and West Caribbean, and even Cuba. I have zero experience with the Pacific.

So what is in place to give sailors a warning, a good conception, of what this place is like?


Are there no cruising guides that cover that spot?


Apparently many folks know of this bay, it seems cruisers are drawn there. If it is soo bad why have these problems not been communicated?

After reading about it here I would think long and hard about trying that entrance.

But because nothing has been written before now, then I may well have tried rhat entrance prior to this conversation.

Obviously the bar changes significantly. I have experience with that happening. So maybe the bar is in a new and more difficult phase.

And it also seems that the Moody 49 keel snapped clean off. I don’t know how that plays into this story. The previous boat broached with spreaders into the water, IMHO that is VERY FAR from acceptable.

I am not drawing specific conclusions, other than it seems there is a want of adequate prior knowledge being share within the cruising community.

Or is that not true?

[Kettlewell]

I'll stick to my previous point of view: just don't follow pangas. If you can, scout all shallow areas by dinghy, and make waypoints to guide yourself in when you have to go in somewhere, and raise your own danger warnings for you as you imagine how something could go wrong and how you might address it. Or just go back to sea. Where there is unimpeded depth, there is safety. We've all gone without a good night's sleep sometime. We make do and catch up later. It takes courage to behave prudently when others are not. Your boat, your choice. We've never had hull insurance, and have always opted for the prudent, conservative approach.

^^This^^In places like the Bahamas and the San Blas I have not followed the crowd, no matter how many people were doing it. Sometimes it meant not seeing an anchorage others liked because we had heard of potential theft problems there, and one of our friends was boarded and robbed at night. Other times it has meant an uncomfortable night offshore waiting for a safer time to enter. OTOH, I have had a string of boats decide to follow me through a very tricky passage winding through coral shallows despite my warnings to them, and it was very disconcerting to feel responsible for their welfare. But there was no way to prevent others from following me. There seems to be a very strong urge to follow the crowd, as we see often when anchoring in some remote location. Often the next boat in anchors right next to us, no matter how much room there is. I haven't been to Bahia del Sol, but it sounds to me like the type of place I wouldn't even consider if I had to follow a panga in.

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by hpeer

It seems folks kinda missed a point I was trying to make above.

We are a community, and generally we have decent ways of communicating difficulties. That is at least true for the Bahamas, East Caribbean and West Caribbean, and even Cuba. I have zero experience with the Pacific.

So what is in place to give sailors a warning, a good conception, of what this place is like?


Are there no cruising guides that cover that spot?


Apparently many folks know of this bay, it seems cruisers are drawn there. If it is soo bad why have these problems not been communicated?

After reading about it here I would think long and hard about trying that entrance.

But because nothing has been written before now, then I may well have tried rhat entrance prior to this conversation.

Obviously the bar changes significantly. I have experience with that happening. So maybe the bar is in a new and more difficult phase.

And it also seems that the Moody 49 keel snapped clean off. I don’t know how that plays into this story. The previous boat broached with spreaders into the water, IMHO that is VERY FAR from acceptable.

I am not drawing specific conclusions, other than it seems there is a want of adequate prior knowledge being share within the cruising community.

Or is that not true?

My wife very much shared your point - so many stories emerged.......AFTER THE FACT!!!!! Why so little beforehand. I totally respect the folks who give general guidance about bars and pangas which is all good advice. But your point is well taken - lack of accurate information and the amount of positive information leads to a false sense of safety. Do we. As cruisers who look out for one another, have a responsibility to share our experiences good and bad to help those who come behind us? At the very least, you can arrive at the BDS bar after a very long passage (225 nms from Chiapas) and be faced with a very difficult decision - cross a bar where you've been told 100s have 'safely' crossed before you and be tied-up with a cold beer 10 mins later; or turn tail and sail overnight to somewhere where you have a new set of logistics including how to clear into El Salvador or even another country (Honduras and Nicaragua).

More accurate information will, at the very least, cause people to have a more viable Plan B if they don't like what they see at the BDS bar. Right now, Plan B is seemingly unnecessary. My takeaway is that is a disasterous mistake. My takeaway from Ann/JPA Cates post above in effect says experience dictacts a Plan B should always be ready no matter what. I've heard and digested that loud and clear.

Also, I too have wondered at what point did Rum Truffle lose her keel.....and why.

Thanks Hpeer for your post and reiteration here. I posted a warning on NoForeignLand as a result.

[rslifkin]

It's hard to tell from the pictures, but I've been wondering if Rum Truffle's keel snapped off a keel stub or if the keel itself snapped. I'd be surprised if it was broken off the boat without significant collateral damage (which isn't apparent in the pictures). I'm almost thinking that the keel took a sufficiently large and sudden side load as the boat got slammed against the bar that it just snapped the keel itself (which would point to Moody having done a good job attaching the keel to the hull).

[JPA Cate]

Originally Posted by Kettlewell

^^This^^In places like the Bahamas and the San Blas I have not followed the crowd, no matter how many people were doing it. Sometimes it meant not seeing an anchorage others liked because we had heard of potential theft problems there, and one of our friends was boarded and robbed at night. Other times it has meant an uncomfortable night offshore waiting for a safer time to enter. OTOH, I have had a string of boats decide to follow me through a very tricky passage winding through coral shallows despite my warnings to them, and it was very disconcerting to feel responsible for their welfare. But there was no way to prevent others from following me. There seems to be a very strong urge to follow the crowd, as we see often when anchoring in some remote location. Often the next boat in anchors right next to us, no matter how much room there is. I haven't been to Bahia del Sol, but it sounds to me like the type of place I wouldn't even consider if I had to follow a panga in.

This is a very interesting and subtle point, Kettlewell: it almost seems to me as if what people think to themselves is something along the lines of "if he thinks he can do it safely enough, then it must be safe enough for me to do it." And this is without any real knowledge.

One time, long ago, we had a catamaran ask us via VHF if he could follow us in through a well lit pass with which we were familiar. Jim responded that he really couldn't stop him following. It struck me that that wasn't really as friendly a response as I would expect, and that it was an unwelcome additional responsibility. I even guess that the other skipper had some sense of concern that he wasn't just doing it on his own. Maybe he asked because his wife/crew was expressing concern? We did get to know them afterwards, nice folks.

Ann

[Benz]

Regarding cruising guides: when we passed through over a dozen years ago, there was Charlie's Charts for Mexico, Zydler's guide to Panama, and for in-between a guide had just been published, by Sail Sarana. It was excellent, especially for a new edition, but it couldn't cover everything, and the savvy cruiser supplemented with the Coast Pilot. I don't know where that guide is now, nor whether it discussed BDS.
We were told about BDS at La Cruz, in Banderas Bay, where the rally organizers held a seminar. The Bar and its dangers were not downplayed, but discussed in full, and the only comfort offered was that there would be pilot support for all boats, and that once inside the juice was worth the squeeze.
Everyone went knowing full well that a dangerous breaking bar had to be negociated, and that some would be refused pilotage by the...pilot if conditions/boat design/etc were deemed unsafe.
I don't know how things are now--perhaps the dangers are minimized to get people in, but it was considered a big deal then, and we were all duly scared and prepared to not take it lightly.

[Kettlewell]

This is a very interesting and subtle point, Kettlewell: it almost seems to me as if what people think to themselves is something along the lines of "if he thinks he can do it safely enough, then it must be safe enough for me to do it." And this is without any real knowledge.

I have succumbed to this fallacy before and lived to regret it! The first time we entered the St. John River in New Brunswick I proceeded to a spot where we could wait out of the current until slack at the Reversing Falls. There's around 25 feet of tide at the mouth of the river, making it a waterfall one way or the other depending on the state of the tide. There is a safe period to enter around slack tide. As we were waiting a small sailboat passed by headed for the falls, but it seemed way too early based on my reading of the tide and current tables. I checked out his transom and he was a local so I spontaneously decided "he must know what he is doing," which is usually a mistake! When we got to the falls I could see his boat ahead and way downhill, but there was no turning back at that point. It was just like whitewater rafting or kayaking as we descended down under the bridge, barely dodging a huge boulder by using full throttle with our 37-foot sailboat sideways to the current. Luckily, we popped out of the maelstrom at the bottom and said "never again"! On the way out of the river I followed the tide and current tables and it was a piece of cake. It's one reason why I say never to rely on local knowledge.

[rslifkin]

Local knowledge is more than just following a boat through somewhere. Just because the locals are doing doesn't mean you should follow, as without talking to them about it first, you have no idea what hazards or challenges they know about and are prepared for that you aren't expecting. Just doing what they're doing ahead of you isn't always good enough, especially if there's a big difference in boat capability.

[Jim Cate]

A lesson we learned in the Pacific islands: when an island bloke says "Oh yeah, plenty water" he means enough to float his canoe. All too often they have no knowledge (or even interest in) of depths beyond that. Of course, some are skilled mariners and offer good advice... but how is one to tell when first encountering them?

Jim

[hpeer]

My experience with bars is slight, well inlet bars anyway. For a short time my distant youth I was in and out of Barnegat Inlet, NJ, well before the new jetties.

Went out one day and right next to the Red buoy the Captain noted 40’ and made some snide remark about how much would be there when we came back. Coming back 2 days later I noted that same Red buoy was sitting ON a sand bank. Now tide accounted for maybe 6’ of that, but still.

Another time coming in in a lobster boat the Captain had to surf the break to get over the bar. Scared last nights diner straight outta me. He waited and waited until he got the right set and gunned it, I stood there looking back up at the wave top. I don’t recall if he had a Fathometer, probably did, but he wasn’t looking at it if he did. He was using his decades of experience to tell him when to run. Seat of the pants maybe, but he never lost a boat.

But many boats were lost there and it continues to be a dangerous inlet where boats are lost, despite the jetties being greatly extended.

This is a rather famous inlet and is much used and its dangerous capacity is well known. Yet folks still screw up, disrespect it, and come to grief. A good friend of mine told me about his approach one evening and getting the marks twisted up, he very nearly made a terrible mistake.

And this all happens in a well maintained inlet, with a full time USCG presence, and well published and circulated reports of the issues.

So it comes as little surprise to me that someone came to grief in a unmarked, unmaintained, 3rd world location.

I am not distressed that the “pilot” had only a radio and no depth sounder. He was probably a fisherman who ran the bar since he was a kid. And he should have known the bar was a problem that day. I suspect commercial pressures and past success encouraged the pilot beyond a reasonable point. It is not a problem until it is a problem, and now it is. The error was accentuated because this boats keel snapped off. That is not anyones fault, but very bad luck.

Would I attempt to run that bar? I don’t know. With my construction my keel would never be compromised, but if aground I would be damn hard to pull off. At best I would not take the decision lightly, I would research the matter before leaving, and have a definite Plan B. And I don’t think I would blindly take anyones word for it. If I could not see a channel with my own eyes I would most likely sail away.

At least that is what I hope I would do, but I have been known to screw up big time. Rather desperate I took a chance running out of San Salvador ISLAND inlet one night and came away unscathed, but that was dumb and sheer luck. While I have had double helpings of humble pie I still find it goes down hard. And I suspect I have a couple more servings coming my way.

Good lick to us all here.

[s/v Jedi]

I checked on active captain… not a word about these incidents. Just reports like “entrance was a piece of cake” etc.

Isn’t that puzzling?

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by hpeer

.....I would research the matter before leaving, and have a definite Plan B.

My #1 intent in starting this thread is so future cruisers can find the information and make a decision on their own. Apparently, the bar has been 'exciting' for many prior crossings but no one has said so. Now the information is available. What someone does with that information is their concern. But the challenges/dangers are no longer buried.

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

A lesson we learned in the Pacific islands: when an island bloke says "Oh yeah, plenty water" he means enough to float his canoe. All too often they have no knowledge (or even interest in) of depths beyond that.

A point of clarification - the representation is that paying the BDS hotel/marina $50, you can receive the services of an experienced bar pilot. Mind you, $50 is 5x the daily wage so not a trivial amount of money in that area. The BDS clients are cruisers, majority of whom are sailboats. While there are no guarantees, the value proposition is hiring local knowledge will reduce risk to near-zero. A cruiser has a reasonable expectation that the BDS Hotel understands their requirements especially under benign conditions (2.6 foot swell and light winds). According to the hotel, the pilot made a mistake in timing the waves. A 'whoopsie.'

I don't disagree with you Jim. As a matter of fact, I'm probably agreeing more than you know. In the end, its your boat and your risk. No one should stand between you and that decision. You really need to give yourself a viable option so you are not compelled to make a decision you might regret.

[hpeer]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

I checked on active captain… not a word about these incidents. Just reports like “entrance was a piece of cake” etc.

Isn’t that puzzling?

Jedi,

Puzzling but not uncommon. I would too often find workers had outdated, or broken software on their computers. I would only find out when I gave them a task and they could not do it. Sometimes this had been broken for a couple of years and they just tolerated it and would find some time consuming work around. You should see the expressions when I (quite annoyed) that they “did not complain enough”. I could get the problems fixed only if they would tell me about the problem.

So my observation is this is just normal human behavior. People will bitch and moan but not take a definitive step to correct. Then when some try ing happens all the stories come out. Which reminds me of some stories I heard when I met some guys who used to work for me after I had moved on a couple of years. Some bad stuff was going in, and these guys hated it passionately, but they never opened their mouths to me. Perhaps for fear of becoming a rat.

Why it is so remains puzzling, but that it happens is not.

[Island Time O25]

What puzzles me is that experienced cruisers, who got to BDS so far, would be relying on boats in front of them in any situation. To NEVER do it was one of the first thing we were taught in ASA 101 class. The instructor (also the owner of that sailing club) drilled it into us giving an actual example from his club fleet where a member sailing a 30 footer drawing 6' followed a 50 footer for a shortcut thinking he must draw at least 6' also. When in fact he had a swing keel drawing 3 or 4' with the keel up. With predictable results for a 30 footer.

[barcoMeCasa]

Originally Posted by hpeer

Why it is so remains puzzling, but that it happens is not.

noforeignland.com is much better. Already been updated, by a poster from this thread possibly.

Fast becoming must have info source for cruising.

Imho best to look at anything & everything.