List of boats with skeg and sugar scoop

[deCarabas]

Good day all,

I have been searching far and wide for a list of boats that have a skeg rudder and a sugar scoop with no luck. Anyone know where I might find such as list or if one even exists? Perhaps a site with an extensive advanced search?
Thanks for taking the time.

[denverd0n]

I have been involved in sailing since 1978. In all that time, I do not believe that I have ever seen a sailboat that had both a skeg rudder, and a sugar scoop. Sugar scoops are generally found on modern designs with fin keels and spade rudders. Skeg rudders are generally found on more traditional designs, which rarely have sugar scoops.


I think you may be looking for something that does not exist.


Good luck in your search, nonetheless. If you find such a boat I'd be interested to see pictures.

[Lost Horizons]

Originally Posted by denverd0n

I have been involved in sailing since 1978. In all that time, I do not believe that I have ever seen a sailboat that had both a skeg rudder, and a sugar scoop.

My boat has both.

[Quebramar]

Indeed, full skeg was older design. FWIW My Najad 373 has semi skeg and sugar scoop, many Hallberg Rassy from 90’s till mid 2000 have that as well. Illustration on sailboatdata.com

[Jim Cate]

Well, Don, Unicorns DO exist! Our boat, a one-off design by Jon Sayer, has a partial skeg rudder and a big sugar scoop. Don't know of any production boats with that combo, but very likely there are a few around.

So, OP, keep searching!

Jim

[deCarabas]

Thanks for the replies. Starting to make more sense why I can't find any. Man those Najad's are sure nice. Or should I say the only one I could find for sale. My search continues

[Cheechako]

There were plenty with the skeg and reverse transom, 70's and 80's. But when the reverse transom became a hollow platform "sugar scoop" to step on... hmmm not as many.

[JPA Cate]

de Carabas,

You could check out Van de Stadt designs. The Samoa has the skeg hung rudder, and a tiny scoop, but if your were building it, surely you could lengthen it if you wished.

As Jim wrote, our boat has quite a long scoop, and we find it very convenient. At first, he thought it a waste of space, but it has turned out not to be...and our waterline is 44 ft. long.

Ann

[Dockhead]

Almost all Oysters are like that.


But why? Skeg rudders are terribly inefficient, and not necessarily any stronger.

[ggray]

How about two keg rudders and two sugar scoops?

Voyage cats have them.

Also the old Edel cats

[Dr. Sea]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Almost all Oysters are like that. But why? Skeg rudders are terribly inefficient, and not necessarily any stronger.

My Oyster 55 has a sugar scoop and a skeg rudder. It will not turn on a dime the way my Beneteau with a big spade rudder would, but turning on a dime is not good sailing. When I was researching the boat characteristics that I required in an ocean going boat, I found that a very high percentage of boats abandoned at sea were due to rudder failure, maybe more than half. It is possible that some spade rudders are as strong as some skeg hung rudders, but does it make much sense that a big spade rudder attached to a hull at only 1 attachment point can be as strong as a skeg hung rudder attached at 3-5 attachment points?

[geoleo]

A few Brewer 44 s made in USA by Ft Myers yacht and shipbuilding have both, They are really brewer 42s with a scoop.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Dr. Sea

My Oyster 55 has a sugar scoop and a skeg rudder. It will not turn on a dime the way my Beneteau with a big spade rudder would, but turning on a dime is not good sailing. When I was researching the boat characteristics that I required in an ocean going boat, I found that a very high percentage of boats abandoned at sea were due to rudder failure, maybe more than half. It is possible that some spade rudders are as strong as some skeg hung rudders, but does it make much sense that a big spade rudder attached to a hull at only 1 attachment point can be as strong as a skeg hung rudder attached at 3-5 attachment points?

This is a debate which has gone on for many years and something wise men may disagree about.


If a skeg is really structurally tied in -- and that's hard to do -- and IF the skeg is really strong and IF the several attachment points are really strong -- then of course with the load spread around more, this could be an advantage in strength, compared to the cantilever of a spade rudder.


HOWEVER, those things are not usually all true. One designer -- I think it was Bob Perry -- said most skegs are held on by the rudders, so poorly are they tied in with the boat structure (this of course does not apply to Oysters). I think it's pretty much a consensus of yacht designers of this century that it's easier to make a spade rudder really strong, than a skeg one. Steve Dashew has a whole chapter on that in one of his books and of course all of his designs going back for decades all have spade rudders.


The main reason for spade rudders is not strength (they are more easily made really strong, but that doesn't mean that they ARE made really strong -- many mass produced boats have pretty weak spade rudders), but hydrodynamic performance. The rudder is one of the two underwater wings so crucial for sailing performance. Spade rudder gives much less drag and much more power, and with a big reduction in steering force. Much easier on helmsman and autopilot and much easier on all the steering gear.


For me the choice is obvious, and that's why almost all expensive boats and ALL performance boats have spade rudders.


My own boat does NOT have a spade rudder -- it's a semi-balanced rudder on a half-skeg. Like the Hylas 54 rudder. Arguably the worst of both worlds . The partial skeg is tied into the structure like a keel -- so strong but would have been ridiculously expensive to build (and for what?). Semi-balanced helps performance -- and that part of the rudder which is ahead of the rudder post really helps with feel and forces on the steering gear. But it's inferior to a real spade rudder, and I'm sure less strong than Dashew's rudders. And the joint where the skeg ends is an ideal crab pot rope catcher


YMMV!

[mitiempo]

Originally Posted by Dr. Sea

My Oyster 55 has a sugar scoop and a skeg rudder. It will not turn on a dime the way my Beneteau with a big spade rudder would, but turning on a dime is not good sailing. When I was researching the boat characteristics that I required in an ocean going boat, I found that a very high percentage of boats abandoned at sea were due to rudder failure, maybe more than half. It is possible that some spade rudders are as strong as some skeg hung rudders, but does it make much sense that a big spade rudder ATTACHED TH THE HULL AT ONLY ONE ATTACHMENT POINT can be as strong as a skeg hung rudder attached at 3-5 attachment points?

No boats have the rudder attached at only one point to the hull. A proper spade rudder has attachment at both where the shaft exits the hull and at a second place ideally above the waterline.

As Dockhead stated all Dashew's designs have had spade rudders since the beginning and they average over 50k miles for the group.

As Bob Perry has stated many skegs are held on by the rudder. Walk through a yard and shake a few rudders to see this for yourself.

Bestevaer's designs by Dykstra all have spade rudders. All easy to steer. Interestingly many have tillers including the designer's own 53' boat.

A good spade rudder can and often is much stronger that a rudder on a skeg. Examples would be the Bestevaer and Outbound. Yes, you can build a weak spade rudder just as you can build a weak rudder on a skeg.

Many of the boats that do not have much ability to hold a course without a hand on the tiller or wheel were never designed to - they were racing derived and maneuverability was the design brief. A racer never leaves the wheel.

[DoubleD]

Caliber 35 has both, although it's more of a half scoop