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Old 15-05-2020, 12:27   #1
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List of boats with skeg and sugar scoop

Good day all,

I have been searching far and wide for a list of boats that have a skeg rudder and a sugar scoop with no luck. Anyone know where I might find such as list or if one even exists? Perhaps a site with an extensive advanced search?
Thanks for taking the time.
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Old 15-05-2020, 13:18   #2
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Re: List of boats with skeg and sugar scoop

I have been involved in sailing since 1978. In all that time, I do not believe that I have ever seen a sailboat that had both a skeg rudder, and a sugar scoop. Sugar scoops are generally found on modern designs with fin keels and spade rudders. Skeg rudders are generally found on more traditional designs, which rarely have sugar scoops.


I think you may be looking for something that does not exist.


Good luck in your search, nonetheless. If you find such a boat I'd be interested to see pictures.
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Old 15-05-2020, 13:36   #3
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Re: List of boats with skeg and sugar scoop

Indeed, full skeg was older design. FWIW My Najad 373 has semi skeg and sugar scoop, many Hallberg Rassy from 90ís till mid 2000 have that as well. Illustration on sailboatdata.com
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Old 15-05-2020, 13:37   #4
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Re: List of boats with skeg and sugar scoop

Well, Don, Unicorns DO exist! Our boat, a one-off design by Jon Sayer, has a partial skeg rudder and a big sugar scoop. Don't know of any production boats with that combo, but very likely there are a few around.

So, OP, keep searching!

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Old 15-05-2020, 13:58   #5
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Re: List of boats with skeg and sugar scoop

There were plenty with the skeg and reverse transom, 70's and 80's. But when the reverse transom became a hollow platform "sugar scoop" to step on... hmmm not as many.
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Old 15-05-2020, 14:09   #6
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Re: List of boats with skeg and sugar scoop

Thanks for the replies. Starting to make more sense why I can't find any. Man those Najad's are sure nice. Or should I say the only one I could find for sale. My search continues
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Old 15-05-2020, 14:32   #7
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Re: List of boats with skeg and sugar scoop

de Carabas,

You could check out Van de Stadt designs. The Samoa has the skeg hung rudder, and a tiny scoop, but if your were building it, surely you could lengthen it if you wished.

As Jim wrote, our boat has quite a long scoop, and we find it very convenient. At first, he thought it a waste of space, but it has turned out not to be...and our waterline is 44 ft. long.

Ann
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Old 15-05-2020, 15:26   #8
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Re: List of boats with skeg and sugar scoop

Almost all Oysters are like that.


But why? Skeg rudders are terribly inefficient, and not necessarily any stronger.
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Old 15-05-2020, 15:51   #9
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Re: List of boats with skeg and sugar scoop

How about two keg rudders and two sugar scoops?

Voyage cats have them.

Also the old Edel cats
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Old 15-05-2020, 16:42   #10
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Re: List of boats with skeg and sugar scoop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Almost all Oysters are like that. But why? Skeg rudders are terribly inefficient, and not necessarily any stronger.
My Oyster 55 has a sugar scoop and a skeg rudder. It will not turn on a dime the way my Beneteau with a big spade rudder would, but turning on a dime is not good sailing. When I was researching the boat characteristics that I required in an ocean going boat, I found that a very high percentage of boats abandoned at sea were due to rudder failure, maybe more than half. It is possible that some spade rudders are as strong as some skeg hung rudders, but does it make much sense that a big spade rudder attached to a hull at only 1 attachment point can be as strong as a skeg hung rudder attached at 3-5 attachment points?
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Old 15-05-2020, 17:07   #11
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Re: List of boats with skeg and sugar scoop

A few Brewer 44 s made in USA by Ft Myers yacht and shipbuilding have both, They are really brewer 42s with a scoop.
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Old 15-05-2020, 18:50   #12
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Re: List of boats with skeg and sugar scoop

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post


But why? Skeg rudders are terribly inefficient, and not necessarily any stronger.
To the OP-
Beware of such opinions and preferences stated as facts.

There are positives and negatives to everything boating. Lots of boats are built more to sell than they are to sail.
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Old 15-05-2020, 21:21   #13
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Re: List of boats with skeg and sugar scoop

Quote:
Originally Posted by denverd0n View Post
I have been involved in sailing since 1978. In all that time, I do not believe that I have ever seen a sailboat that had both a skeg rudder, and a sugar scoop.
My boat has both.
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Old 15-05-2020, 22:27   #14
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Re: List of boats with skeg and sugar scoop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Sea View Post
My Oyster 55 has a sugar scoop and a skeg rudder. It will not turn on a dime the way my Beneteau with a big spade rudder would, but turning on a dime is not good sailing. When I was researching the boat characteristics that I required in an ocean going boat, I found that a very high percentage of boats abandoned at sea were due to rudder failure, maybe more than half. It is possible that some spade rudders are as strong as some skeg hung rudders, but does it make much sense that a big spade rudder attached to a hull at only 1 attachment point can be as strong as a skeg hung rudder attached at 3-5 attachment points?

This is a debate which has gone on for many years and something wise men may disagree about.


If a skeg is really structurally tied in -- and that's hard to do -- and IF the skeg is really strong and IF the several attachment points are really strong -- then of course with the load spread around more, this could be an advantage in strength, compared to the cantilever of a spade rudder.


HOWEVER, those things are not usually all true. One designer -- I think it was Bob Perry -- said most skegs are held on by the rudders, so poorly are they tied in with the boat structure (this of course does not apply to Oysters). I think it's pretty much a consensus of yacht designers of this century that it's easier to make a spade rudder really strong, than a skeg one. Steve Dashew has a whole chapter on that in one of his books and of course all of his designs going back for decades all have spade rudders.


The main reason for spade rudders is not strength (they are more easily made really strong, but that doesn't mean that they ARE made really strong -- many mass produced boats have pretty weak spade rudders), but hydrodynamic performance. The rudder is one of the two underwater wings so crucial for sailing performance. Spade rudder gives much less drag and much more power, and with a big reduction in steering force. Much easier on helmsman and autopilot and much easier on all the steering gear.


For me the choice is obvious, and that's why almost all expensive boats and ALL performance boats have spade rudders.


My own boat does NOT have a spade rudder -- it's a semi-balanced rudder on a half-skeg. Like the Hylas 54 rudder. Arguably the worst of both worlds . The partial skeg is tied into the structure like a keel -- so strong but would have been ridiculously expensive to build (and for what?). Semi-balanced helps performance -- and that part of the rudder which is ahead of the rudder post really helps with feel and forces on the steering gear. But it's inferior to a real spade rudder, and I'm sure less strong than Dashew's rudders. And the joint where the skeg ends is an ideal crab pot rope catcher


YMMV!
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Old 16-05-2020, 00:00   #15
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Re: List of boats with skeg and sugar scoop

The above assessment mostly contradicts my with experience. First, the spade rudders on all previous three boats needed to be constantly controlled. They would not maintain course for longer than a minute or so downwind. The barn door rudder with a skeg maintains the course for as long as no one touches the wheel. The wheel itself is smaller than on the previous smaller and lighter boat, which had the spade rudder, with less force needed to steer. The autopilot is happy too. In fact, I hardly need an autopilot at all. Yes, it turns like a tanker. I am still getting used to putting the boat in my slip at first try - the muscle memory is hard to overcome, but I am improving each time.
Oh, and the comment about catching the crab pots. Please... I honestly cannot think of a more bullet proof arrangement than this configuration.
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