Last pictures of Primadonna

[Rustic Charm]

Originally Posted by brownoarsman

Totally disagree - let's even leave the ethics aside (though I'm not sure you can call a boat abandoned when its owner is apparently in a jail cell in the same country as the wreck, unable to look after his boat).

You see this is one of the problems, posters either just make up assumptions or don't read everything to get the context.

Pascal has returned to France. Don't know what has happened to the woman as the news report didn't mention her.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by brownoarsman

Totally disagree - let's even leave the ethics aside (though I'm not sure you can call a boat abandoned when its owner is apparently in a jail cell in the same country as the wreck, unable to look after his boat).

If I were the Nomadik crew, I would never, ever return to the Bahamas. Based on what Dockhead posted, if the Bahamanian authorities are aware of this event, either through their blog, this forum, or other means, they could be facing a pretty stiff jail sentence (during which time their boat would probably be left in much the same condition as Primadonna).

If they want to obey what appears to be Bahamian law, they would try to negotiate a price for what they took off Primadonna with Pascal, who is still the owner of the boat. I believe the salvage rate would probably be around 65% of market price for the removed items. They then may be able to have a token legal defense. As it is, they've broken a law with very stiff penalties - no matter the context, or what sailors on the internet think, the court will look at the law.

This is, I believe the gist of it. My belief is if the Nomadik crew attempts to close the matter with the Bahamian authorities, then at least they will be OK to return, otherwise they should remain out of Bahamian waters.

[brownoarsman]

Other posters have said Pascal is still in a jail cell, awaiting French consulate help to return to France. Regardless, though, let's leave the ethics/morality aside.

As far as we can tell, based on Dockhead's post, Bahamian law was broken. The context is unimportant if authorities there decided to pursue this. Police wouldn't really investigate $1 taken off the street. However, a windlass with 'thousands of dollars value'? If I ever wanted to return to the Bahamas, I would try to cast at least a veneer of legality over what I've done. Again, it's the law, not the morality, that probably matters most to the Nomadik.

If they never want to return to the Bahamas, they can make whatever decision they want based on the viewpoints in this thread.

[Rustic Charm]

Originally Posted by brownoarsman

As far as we can tell, based on Dockhead's post, Bahamian law was broken. The context is unimportant if authorities there decided to pursue this. Police wouldn't really investigate $1 taken off the street. However, a windlass with 'thousands of dollars value'? If I ever wanted to return to the Bahamas, I would try to cast at least a veneer of legality over what I've done. Again, it's the law, not the morality, that probably matters most to the Nomadik.

If they never want to return to the Bahamas, they can make whatever decision they want based on the viewpoints in this thread.

This is all being sensationalized by people making stuff up. 'A windlass worth thousands of dollars'! Oh come on, is that retail or whole sale price? Lol Second hand try a few hundred dollars maybe. I purchased a new stainless HD windlass for a 10k tonne boat and it cost $2400 NEW!

Like the $1 coin, police are not likely to investigate at all. It's quite silly all this exaggerating, 'oh they shouldn't go back there, not if they value their freedom'.

To the police context matters completely. Context is part of the legal process. As a cop for 14 years I'd be wanting a 'complainant', no complaint no investigation. The removing of some old property off an abandoned, derelict, grounded and unsalavageable rusty boat off two illegals, the police I doubt would have any interst at all. The locals, and the police would probably be hoping that someone would take the whole thing and save the environment from more crap in the water.

[thelifenomadik]

To all those who maintain that we should not have gone aboard the boat because it is not abandoned, but the owners are away:

We have come across many derelict vessels in various anchorages in worst neglect than Primadonna, but we would not ever assume they were abandoned even if they were. The difference with Primadonna is huge: She was wrecked on the reefs in a remote place where you cannot take your dinghy and go anywhere thinking to return in a day or two. If the boat is lying on her port side, there is nothing within 18 nautical miles but mangroves, reefs, and flamingos. It was a mystery for us. When we spoke to the fishermen, the only people visiting this place, they told us the boat is a recent wreck, abandoned and it is OK to take stuff from it. They have already been aboard taking stuff, we were NOT the first ones. And the stuff we took, you can imagine by the look of the boat from outside and the few pictures already pubished, is not first quality expensive material.

Here is another picture, never published until now, so you can see how a wreck at the end of the world looks like: abandoned is 100%. We had to go there with a kayak, as it is too shallow and full of rocks for the dinghy. Go salvage it if you like, or wait for the owners to return and what? Tow it somehow? Live aboard without fresh water and food? Everything was pointing to the fact that no one will ever come for this boat.

[brownoarsman]

The quotes on the costly windlass are actually from the Nomadik blog, hence the quote marks. I assume, having a windlass like the one they took from Primadonna, they are in a position to know its value.

I'll bow to your experience in law enforcement as to whether or not they're actually prosecuted or whether the police are interested in the matter at all. However, having grown up, lived in, worked, and spent the majority of my life in countries spanning the gamut from first to third world, where I am not a citizen, the wise traveler obeys the letter of the law anywhere they go. It saves any surprises they, as a non-native citizen, aren't in the best position to deal with. I'd caution any cruisers in a foreign country to avoid taking actions like those of the Nomadik, regardless of the value! Nomadik - live and learn.

Now I, like you, Ted, am done posting on this thread!

If anyone has ever seen a comfortable MSD and overall head enclosure, that's what I'm really interested in! (http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...-124499-5.html)

[Kevin84]

Originally Posted by tedsherrin

You see this is one of the problems, posters either just make up assumptions or don't read everything to get the context.

Pascal has returned to France. Don't know what has happened to the woman as the news report didn't mention her.

Actually, we don't really know what happened with him. Regardless, the law was broken. To quote Oliver Wendell Holmes, former Chief Justice of the United States Supreme Court, "This is a court of law, not of justice." Courts do not consider "context." They look at the law in black and white. As an example, someone kills a child rapist. Was what they did "just?" Arguably, yes. However a court will still find you guilty of murder and ignore the fact that you killed a rapist. Granted, this is an extreme example, but it illustrates how courts view things. Either a law was broken or ir wasnt. There is no middle ground.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[John Casey]

Nomadik, credit for coming forward, but ignorance of the law does not free you of it, regardless of where you are.

That being said, there are a lot of "opinions" expressed here, most of them will be more emotive than useful.

Unless someone identifies themselves as an expert (or at least have some experience) on Maritime, Bahamian, NC State Law, and any other Act/Statute/Convention/Law that may apply here, I caution applying too much weight to them.

You on the other hand should educate yourself as quickly as possible, especially since you have posted you actions online. Assume they are now there for all to see, forever, even if you pull your blog article.

I have been exposed to some international laws/act/conventions through my work/education, but only enough to be dangerous, and I know what I don’t know.

Your belief that this vessel is abandoned on the high seas, or mare liberum, therefore justifying your actions, doesn’t apply here since those water are considered territorial waters by the Bahamas. I believe this is the case, but I’m not sure. I don’t know if all other nations agree or if there is any conflicting national or transnational opinions on the matter. Even if there are, that doesn’t stop a Bahamian authority from taking action if they see fit. Or maybe they won’t. The reason this sounds complicated is because it is.

The convention that I think applies to such a discussion is The United Nations Convention of the Laws of the Sea (UNCLOS). UNCLOS III dealt with a number of things including the definition of Territorial Waters. It gave the country in question the right to set law, regulate the waters and sole access to the resources found in or beneath the waters. Does this help? I don't know.

There is nothing simple about maritime law or any other kind of law. If you can get enough people or organizations to agree on which ones apply, then you must worry about who will enforce them and what are the consequences? The unfortunate answer is that it depends.

You may be “safe” by virtue of no one wanting to spend the time/resources worry about this vessel, and since you are mobile will be hard to track, but that doesn’t mean you are right or that you didn’t break any laws. You may not have, but the opinions here and your own justification that you blogged, are not the answer.

I suggest that you contact any expert(s) in the jurisdictions that are related to your actions, perhaps at least NC and The Bahamas, and consider what your options could be, or should be.

Your morals and ethics are your own, and what you decide in the end is up to you and your family.

Good luck to you.

[BandB]

Nomadik

While I do still admire your willingness to readdress this and talk about it, one comment. I have gone back and read your blog which I consider the extemporaneous account of the events. You make the haul sound quite nice there. You also express surprise in some ways that even the phone is still working. Now, here, you're trying to give the impression that it was all junk and the boat was clearly abandoned and unfit for use.

I'd point out one thing. What the background of the boat was, whether or not the owners will be returning, any of the other peripheral facts are irrelevant to the greater discussion. The reality is you didn't know any of that. You also didn't have any right to the items on the boat. The getting permission from the fishing boat that passed just is ludicrous. That is about like someone being gone on an extended vacation and the boy cutting the lawn telling you to feel free to rob and loot their home as clearly it's abandoned, just look at the length of the grass.

This could just as easily been someone who injured themselves and was taken to shore to a hospital. Could have been a family's boat. Even now, we don't know where Pascal is. The speculation of whether or not he has been or will be returned to France is just speculation. He could be serving time for his fine for illegal entry and released from jail today. As to my personal opinion of the Primadonna and their owners, I think they're professional con artists who just move from one location to the next when it becomes too uncomfortable. However, the crime which got them detained in the Bahamas was simply failing to clear upon entry. Note that it's this same crime that makes it clear the vessel is not at sea but in Bahamian waters.

If this is the lifestyle you choose, then that's your right, but be prepared to receive much criticism. Is it the one you're comfortable teaching your children, that you travel from place to place and if you see something that looks unguarded for a couple of days then you loot it? I also noted that you indicated you did this the first time recently with two others who apparently led you to this new hobby of "wrecking." Perhaps you might look back on that as it would seem they may have led you wrong if it's from them that you got your misinformation about what is legal and isn't and from them you got their view through their moral compass. I can see how it was a new adventure and might have seemed like a fun undertaking without consequences. Well, now it's had mild consequences, the court of public opinion.

In the future doing this could have far more serious consequences. Arrest. Or another, owners returning and taking the law into their own hands. Or one more. As you justify one act, you find it easy to justify others that cross further and further over the line both legally and morally. What if next time you're on land your daughter were to see a rather old and rusty bicycle sitting outside a store and she looks around. Comes back the next day and it's still there. So she takes it. It's abandoned in her mind. Forget that it might be someone who works there and their only means of transportation but she doesn't know that.

Those committing major crimes in our world, whether thieves or white collar business crimes or murder rarely start at those levels. In fact, they generally start with something very minor, in the so called gray area, something they easily justify in their mind. Over time they progress as it gets easier and easier.

You've chosen to live a life as a Nomad. Enjoy the world and it's beauty and the freedom that comes with that life. I'd urge you to rethink anything that might be contradictory to that wonderful way you dream of living. Quoting you, "Every Journey Has a Dream." I doubt that what this event has led to was your dream. I doubt looting the boats of others was your dream. In fact it seems opposite from that dream. I'd take this as a lesson learned, a mistake. I'd reevaluate my own justification of it. And I'd get back to living my dream and promise myself not to risk my dream anymore with journeys into very questionable actions. Your dream, in my opinion, took a bad turn but if the lesson is learned, you can easily get it back on track. If you haven't learned from this and don't now question your actions yourself, then you may at some point find your dream getting lost.

Perhaps the owners of Primadonna even once had a good dream. However, long ago it seems (and yes there are stories before the US) they derailed. Now they not only have the scorn of communities on both sides of the pond, and the ridicule of online groups, but they've been arrested in the Bahamas and their boat sits with their belongings being taken day by day by thieves. I don't know where or how they started, but I'd sure hate to see you end up decades from now as they are today.

[Rick R]

BandB:

Excellent!!!

[Mambo]

Originally Posted by Rick R

BandB:

Excellent!!!

Indeed, by the end I found myself yelling "just throw the ring into the fire Mr. Frodo!"

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by tedsherrin

How many of you would fail to pick up a $1 note found on the street? Or having picked it up turn it into local police station?

$1 or $100, finding and keeping is illegal in most western countries. And yet how many of you would hand that $1 in?

How many of you finding an old beat up abandoned 70 Ford abandoned on the highway, rusting in the elements, stripped for most of its parts, miles from anywhere, but that remaining bumper is just what you could use. The rego plate is there. Someone has left it there. Maybe it was a couple who came over the Mexican border illegally and got arrested. He chose to return to Mexico, but his female companion, don't know where she is. BUT, it's still his property.

There appear two kinds of people commenting on the ethics of this. Those who look at the context and respond to the context, and those who ignore the context and maintain, 'there is property you own and property you don't '. The later liken the situation to being no different than home burglary, cutting mooring lines and stealing a boat (both cited examples).

It's absolutely ridiculous self righteousness. It was an abandoned, derelict, damaged, unsalvageable vessel left to the elements. Nothing at all wrong with what they did. . . Yeah and I know, someone will come back with the comment 'better keep my boat locked up from you', and you will prove my earlier comment avoiding the context.

Doh! I've gone back to commenting on this absolutely ridiculous dialogue.

You talk about context and then use two entirely different, unrelated contexts to prove(?) your point. This boat is NOT a $1 bill OR an abandoned, rusting wreck by the side of the road stripped of most of its parts, so the example you used is entirely different from the Primadonna one. Primadonna isn't the prettiest boat around but it looks to me like if someone came by with a decent sized motorboat, they could tow her off and sail her back to the US. If nothing is done, it may become nothing but a useless rusting hulk but it's not yet at that stage.

To answer your question about finding money, I think lots of people would turn it in, just because it's the right thing to do. Most wouldn't bother going to the trouble for $1, but for $100, most people would feel obligated to turn it in to the local PD just in case someone had reported it missing or lost and the owner could be found. Last Sunday afternoon I found a very nice gold womans pin in the parking lot of the venue where I was attending a symphony concert. I'm not sure what it was worth but it was at least gold plated and was quite heavy. I turned it into the box office at the venue because I knew that someone would be bound to be looking for it eventually and that was where I thought they'd probably check first. I didn't leave my name because it's not mine and I'm not looking for any reward or thanks so who I am is irrelevant. The only important thing was the person who lost it now has at least a chance to get it back. That's the way most people live and I don't think it's even something you have to think about, you just do it and assume others will hopefully do the same when you lose something. If that's not how you see things, maybe you've been hanging out with the wrong people?

[oceannavigator]

BnB makes a good, but not often touched upon point about safety.

If I found people stealing my things like that, I'd probably get into a major confrontation with them, which would end with them putting everything back, by free will or at gunpoint, or getting killed if they refused to put my stuff back (where legal, such as in Florida).

Not one to call police because people can get away.

It's very dangerous to put kids in the middle of a scenario like that.

[Jammer Six]

Oh, good, the Strut & Pose phase.

[rognvald]

"I don't believe that breaking a law is necessarily immoral..and yes, I believe in limited vigilantism." Virginia Boy


It is an interesting concept when there are those in society who choose to establish their own laws and ethics irrespective of the laws of their country or those of civilized people. After roughly 2,000 years of Western Civilization and recorded history, the educated among us understand that anarchy, vigilantism, and mob justice are indicators of Third World countries and failed societies and represent the basest instincts and weaknesses of Man-- not his greatness. We have seen its horrific results in the truth by fire and water trials during the Dark Ages, the torture and killings of the Spanish Inquisition, the Salem witch hunts, the pogroms of the Jews, the lynchings of Blacks in the South, the wholesale slaughter of the American Indian, the genocide in Rwunda where up to 1 million people were killed in a bloody civil war and the current farm murders of White South Africans by the Black majority. These were not civilized people. They created their own laws to justify their behavior. And, no one benefitted from their vigilante justice. So, when you say that it is a generational thing and that the young people think "outside the box," I would respond that this is an extremely naïve and dangerous mentality that shows lack of a historical perspective and defies the ethics of civilized people. It has nothing to do with age . . . it has everything to do with being civilized. And the connection to the theft of Primadonna and its ethical considerations? Isn't that for you and your vigilante justice to decide? Good luck and good sailing.