Is it stupid to take a racing style sailboat around the world?

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by wingssail

These are Barient 632-3 Aluminum. The "6" means wide drum, the "32" is the size, "-3" means 3-speed.

These are the power-houses of our boat. They do everything...

Nice. Nothing like a big set of wide drum 3 speeds to get jobs done.
I thought they might be Barients, but I was hedging my bets.

[Supercat568]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

If you are interested in the presence of both tiller and wheel steering, have a look at post #79 in

https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...on-2930-6.html

which gives the history of the boat and it's peculiar setup. In fact, that whole thread is very informative, with some design discussions amongst some quite knowledgeable folks. I recommend it to you.

As to kevlar, no, our hull has only some extra glass layers in the impact areas and around the skeg root up in the hull... a really strongly built structure for once. I'm no expert, but there are some who say that adding kevlar to a glass layup isn't the best means of adding strength to a hull... for reasons that I'm not competent to discuss. Use the custom Google search function here on CF to research if interested.

Cheers,

Jim

The reason i like tiller is that's what I'm familiar with. Also, sailing with my uncle on his Taswell 50, i just sucked at sailing with a wheel! I might've been just as bad with that boat even if it had a tiller...i don't know?
Does your boat have both? I understand that boats have emergency tiller. I thought i only saw a tiller on your boat, and that's how the 36 is too.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by Supercat568

The reason i like tiller is that's what I'm familiar with. Also, sailing with my uncle on his Taswell 50, i just sucked at sailing with a wheel! I might've been just as bad with that boat even if it had a tiller...i don't know?
Does your boat have both? I understand that boats have emergency tiller. I thought i only saw a tiller on your boat, and that's how the 36 is too.

Yes, Insatiable II has both wheel and tiller steering, and it is not an emergency tiller... although it serves as one. As explained in the referenced post, she started life tiller steered and with a centerboard. With that setup she had a bad weather helm with strong winds and following seas. After a difficult crossing from Japan to the Aleutians a normal fin keel was designed and fitted, and the wheel was added, but the tiller was retained. She can be steered with either.

I prefer the wheel, but should it fail, the tiller is there, ready to go at all times.

Jim

[Yihang]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

There's a sort of anti-racing zeitgeist here on CF. I really don't know why.

What we see a lot of nowadays is a whole lot of retiree cruisers, with little experience and big plans; someone once characterized them as having too much money and too little anchoring skills. But even more, they don't really know how to trim sails, nor care. They work towards longevity of sails, regardless of hideous sail shape. And, it isn't important to them. Lacking the experience of sailing whatever the weather offered them, they only sail in pleasant light air weather, and do not learn much about coping with motion, or sails in heavier weather, so they fear it.

Who it does matter to are those who used to sail competitively in their youth, and carried those skills and habits over to cruising. And we are a very small number in an already very small community.

I'd like to say thanks to Fred for his mostly very patient explanations, and thanks to whoever it was that wrote about sailing when the rest are motoring; and to jmh2002. Imo, you have the right of it.

What is sad to me, is the popularity of the cruising idea, seen against the lack of experience of the applicants. When will they get the opportunity to learn? How many good years do we really have left after 60?

Ann, check my "about me" in my profile, if you're curious. I was lucky to sail with a number of skippers, and to not go to HI with a poor one. Before I met Jim.

I often wonder if there is a french cruiserforums where everyone is zipping around on their pogos and outremers without a tether.

[Chotu]

Stupid side question about winches:

The big drums look cool.

But why do you want to use them? What’s the purpose?

More contact area with the line so you get more power? I would imagine you also lose a lot of mechanical advantage using a large drum too.

I was thinking of using large drums on my boat.

[Benz]

Originally Posted by Yihang

I often wonder if there is a french cruiserforums where everyone is zipping around on their pogos and outremers without a tether.

There are plenty of French cruisers doing the low-budget cruising lifestyle like many of us; they tend to lean toward hard-chined homemade steel boats.
I don't know their tethering habits, having never been to sea with one.

[Yihang]

Originally Posted by Benz

There are plenty of French cruisers doing the low-budget cruising lifestyle like many of us; they tend to lean toward hard-chined homemade steel boats.
I don't know their tethering habits, having never been to sea with one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hz5q...=YachtingWorld

Sadly a tether probably would have saved his life. The counter argument would be at 20 knots you are going to drown anyway from being dragged. Although in the case of a capsize other crew would have noticed...

https://voilesetvoiliers.ouest-franc...1-64af5fb563fa

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Chotu

Stupid side question about winches:

The big drums look cool.

But why do you want to use them? What’s the purpose?

More contact area with the line so you get more power? I would imagine you also lose a lot of mechanical advantage using a large drum too.

I was thinking of using large drums on my boat.

The wide drum gives more line speed for each revolution of the drum. This is primarily important when bringing in a jib sheet. A grinder spins the handle (on high speed) and a tailer tails a gob full of line. When the sail begins to fill a significant amount of sheet is taken in by the wide drum, but of course there is little mechanical advantage with a wide drum on high speed. The grinder immediately reverses direction of the handle which switches the winch to medium speed. When that becomes too hard the grinder again reverses direction and the winch switches to low speed, where the sail is finally trimmed in. The wide drum/3 speed combination makes tacking much easier to say nothing of being faster.

So the wide drum contributes to quick and easier tacking. The three speed is important for that purpose too, but it also gives heaps of power for heavy work.

I've sailed similarly sized vessels with normal winches, and it is astonishingly different. I recall a Norsman 44 on SF Bay with big two speed winches and tacking (not even in a race situation) was measurably harder and slower. We spent a lot more time grinding in than on race boats with wide drums, and it was quite tiring. Same thing recently on a Hylas 46 I sailed on. It makes a huge difference, but at a price.

[Hasbeen]

I sailed an 8 meter, [scaled down version of the old Americas Cup 12 meters], 53,000 miles around the Pacific over 6 years.


Lay a hull on the edge of one cyclone that shouldn't have happened at that time of year. 50+ knots for about 20 hours, & quite uncomfortable.



Sailed through the start of another to get to a mangrove creek, which I knew would be a lot safer than a port full of boats. Averaged a very wet 8 knots for 20 miles, in 30 to 50 knots wind, under triple reefed main only, pointing about 70 degrees. I doubt many other boats could have done it so easily, or at all.


I believe there are 2 types of sea worthiness. Strong heavy boats, able to survive getting swept by big seas, & light boats that dance up over the nasty stuff. I'll take the latter every time, if by a good designer.

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by Chotu

Stupid side question about winches:

The big drums look cool. But why do you want to use them? What’s the purpose?

Originally Posted by wingssail

The wide drum gives more line speed for each revolution of the drum.

Originally Posted by wingssail

I've sailed similarly sized vessels with normal winches, and it is astonishingly different. I recall a Norsman 44 on SF Bay with big two speed winches and tacking (not even in a race situation) was measurably harder and slower.

Exactly.

And this comes back to the point that I made earlier:

Originally Posted by jmh2002

...the silly thing is, cruising boats are mostly short handed and it's meant to be fun, right? But then why are so many things more difficult to do than on a race boat that has a full crew... ?

Surprisingly, many cruising boats are just not that well thought out as far as actually sailing goes. But is changing, especially amongst the lighter multihull crowd.

[waterman46]

Originally Posted by wingssail

What Risk???

Mr Waterman46, Wrong decisions are wrong decisions. What you suggest regarding the considerations of the safety of the crew applies regardless of what kind of boat you are taking, and honestly, if you mean to say that taking a crew on a racing boat is inherently more risky, please spell out what those risks are.

Of course you are correct about responsibility of any skipper whether racing or cruising and I don't believe I suggested anything else. The point is that any skipper must make decisions considering safety of crew.

Ocean racing is more dangerous than cruising in some ways. The danger is sometimes due to extreme boat designs, but more often in the human behavior difference between racing and cruising.

Competitive urges will make skippers carry on into dangerous conditions and carry more sail, downwind in particular, when cruisers would avoid leaving port. Races are scheduled for fixed dates, unlike cruisers who will wait for better weather.

I have been in a race where two lives and several boats were lost due to carrying on into predicted and broadcast gale and then storm warnings over VHF. The conditions were such that no cruiser in his right mind would not have simply stayed in harbor or at least have turned back to shelter sooner.

I guess safety of racing vs. cruising has no answer, rather like cat vs. monohull safety!

[JPA Cate]

Earlier this year, a couple who had wintered over in Patagonia came into where we were anchored, in a Django. There are well thought out cruising boats, small ones, coming out of France.

Ann

[waterman46]

Originally Posted by jmh2002

You got it Fred

From my own personal experience, I concur with all your rebuttal comments.

And for all the reasons you mentioned I have also often found the more traditional and slower heavy cruising boats to be more unpleasant and more difficult to perform normal sailing operations on when compared to a more performance orientated boat, where everything is set up correctly in the first place to work properly and efficiently for sailing purposes.

Many members post dockside anecdotes without actually having experienced the situation for themselves.

Sometimes after sailing a nicely setup racing boat it can actually be quite a surprise just how easy things can be by comparison.

Yes, it's best if any cruiser has some racing experience. But priorities are different for racers vs. cruisers. As a onetime racer now cruising, I've learned that on a limited budget, keeping all the equipment below deck operating properly is more important than being able to tack quickly.

A good racing boat deck gear and rigging arrangement costs far more than what is needed by the average cruiser. On a racing boat the full crew is necessary to make things "easy" (for the skipper) and those boats could not be easily singlehanded compared to a well set cruising boat.

It's a different game with different rules. What is important to one often makes little difference to the other.

[Cheechako]

Everyone has their limits. A lightweight racing boat is fast to a large extent just because it's super light weight construction. I don't personally think that's a good thing for off shore conditions. But some boats are better than others....

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by waterman46

A good racing boat deck gear and rigging arrangement costs far more than what is needed by the average cruiser. On a racing boat the full crew is necessary to make things "easy" (for the skipper) and those boats could not be easily singlehanded compared to a well set cruising boat.

Although of course I agree in general that a racing boat optimised for a full crew is more difficult to single hand, actually I was trying to make the opposite point in regard to specific tasks.

I will also agree that not all racing sailors display very good seamanship. They are often lacking in this in both thinking and practice.

But specific tasks are often still easier on a racing boat simply because the deck gear and sailing equipment is designed and set up to be very efficient.

So this makes tasks easier.

I'm talking about a well laid out deck, sufficiently powerful winches, big low friction blocks, smaller diameter light weight lines, etc, etc, etc. These all make cruising easier, safer, and more enjoyable too.

Slab reefing vs in mast furling is a topic often mentioned on the forum, and is a favourite of mine - because I could easily take a slab reef in the big mainsail on heavy but fast 51ft cruiser/racer singlehandedly from one position, because I redesigned everything to be be very efficient, using my extensive race boat experience. So I know it can be done, and it can work.

And all this was already over 25 years ago, the equipment has been available for a long time, but I agree it wasn't a common way of thinking for cruising boats back then.

Heavy/traditional vs light/modern (and/or catamaran) is also often mentioned, along with each boats relative ability to beat off a lee shore in bad weather.

And yet there are a great many heavyish more traditionalish monohulls that also don't sail very well up wind, and worse still with all the cruising gear onboard, the jerry cans lashed on the toerail, the big arch and solar panels, the poor sail shape from the half furled roller genoa, as well as a not very experienced cruising crew onboard.

They will struggle to make it off that lee shore too.

A racing boat, or a peformance inspired boat at least (and multihulls too), will do it easily though. Throw a couple of slab reefs in the main, hoist a nice flat blade #3 style headsail (or staysail), sheeted to an inboard track, and put that deep draft (or boards) to work with a crew who know how to sail upwind.

We practice and upskill ourselves on anchoring and all manner of other cruising related skills, but how many cruising sailors actually practice sailing upwind, hard on the wind (not at 45, or 60...), in rough weather, as a skill? Lives might depend on that skill, and the boat's ability one day too...

So I guess my overall point is that having a boat that can actually sail properly, and be handled easily and efficiently, is something that I deem essential for a cruising boat too.