Induction Cooking and AC on DC

[PirateFoxy]

Originally Posted by Pete7

Twice in the past 4 years we have fallen foul of suppliers being unable to provide gas cylinders in the UK, (cylinders are exchanged rather than filled). There is still a huge shortage in the UK. A slow cooker running on an inverter uses 110w which was part of the solution, but until May 21, we couldn't run a kettle or toaster etc on a small yacht. Installing a drop in lithium battery and a bigger 300w solar panel changed all that. We bought kettle plus induction hob and during a 3 week trip away in Aug 21 only needed to run the engine twice during inclement weather to top the batteries up. Cooking is now a mix of gas and electric, but we always use the electric kettle and being English we drink a lot of tea.

Last Oct I finally decided to get rid of the original 34 year old gas cooker as it was getting on a bit (rusty) and doesn't have flame failure devices fitted to the burners. We ordered a cooker without the grill. At the beginning of February the chandler still hadn't heard anything about the order, despite them being made in the UK 200 miles away. Enough was enough and we did a deal with the chandler for just a gas hob and grill which he had in stock.

The hob/grill has to be mounted slightly lower to account for the taller gimbals, otherwise without the weight of the oven part it risks tipping with a heavy pan. Just waiting for a gas inspection / pressure test and away we go.

WE have an Ninja air fryer at home and are thinking of having a second one on the yacht. The alternative is an air fryer oven which Ninja also make, the slim looks ideal.

https://ninjakitchen.co.uk/product/n...1uk-zidSP101UK

The other interesting option is a Remoska which at 400w doesn't even need lithium, a decent pair of lead-acid could power this on a small yacht.

https://www.lakeland.co.uk/31945/Sta...ails-accordion

Is it worth doing? We think so. We avoid expensive marinas preferring the more traditional little fishing harbours or estuaries so no shore power. Having a mix of gas and electric cooking gives us freedom and removes the problem of gas shortages and any existing gas we have lasts much longer.

Pete

We have the Ninja air fryer oven that flips up in our RV and quite like it - you can’t really do a thick roast in it as it’s not terribly tall, but it works just fine for anything that is shallower than a loaf pan. (I know this because I had something in a loaf pan that puffed up over the top and got stuck. 🤣 ) Anything like pizza is fine, I did Thanksgiving dinner in it once I’d carved the Turkey breast to be thin enough to fit, etc. They make a bigger one that you could fit more into but we really like the flip up feature to make the most use of the limited counter space.

We also have an induction cooktop stand alone unit (I might have gotten it at IKEA?) and a portable butane camp stove and we use one or the other of those for stovetop needs depending on battery/generator status. (If the generator is running anyway, might as well just plug in, etc.) We also have a microwave - the RV came with a convection microwave combo but it died and we couldn’t find a replacement combo unit. I’ve never found the combo units to make particularly great ovens anyway - I mostly used them for stuff like microwaving a potato with the oven on at the same time to crisp up the outside while it cooked. Better than a plain microwaved potato.

The other thing worth looking at to see how it suits your cooking style is an Instant Pot or similar electric pressure cooker. Many of them have a sauté function and a slow cooker function and so on, in addition to the pressure lid. I do a lot of one-pot meals in ours if there’s going to be power anyway (generator, if we’re plugged in at a campsite, etc.) Usually the amount of time the generator is running to recharge critical batteries like phones/laptops is enough to make a meal. Then we have sandwiches, etc. that don’t require cooking for the other meals, unless someone wants to do eggs, etc. on the butane camp stove.

(We do have lpg in the RV but that’s what the furnace uses atm so since we’ve done a lot of our RV use in colder weather, we prefer to save it for heating when possible, and in the warmer weather it’s nicer to take the cooktop/camp stove/grill outside to avoid heating up the RV.)

[rslifkin]

The instant pot is a good idea. We've got one at home that we rarely use, so I figure one of these days when I find a spot for it in the galley, we should bring it to the boat.

Would be easy enough to put something together, set it up in the galley sink (which conveniently has an outlet nearby) and let it run off the inverter while we're motoring along on a travel day. Depending on length of day, we might have to prep ingredients ahead and wait until we're underway to dump them in and turn it on, but done right, it should mean having dinner ready to eat upon arrival.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by ranger42c

Beginning to see combo units adding "air fryer" to the mix, too.



I replaced our original, failed, Panasonic combo late last year with a newer Panasonic combo version that also incudes the "air fryer" thing. Partly because that was the best unit to fit the allotted space, even if it did require some slight cabinetry surgery.



I dunno what "air frying" is yet, though, and haven't used the unit anyway -- since that was just at end of season for us this time.



-Chris

Air Fry is a marketing gimmick that stuck around.
Originally AirFriers were custom bowls/pots with a convection heater as a lid. Air Frier has the connotation of a very small capacity countertop cooler but it actually used convection cooking.

Since the general public doesn’t know that they are substantially the same thing makers have started using both terms.

https://www.bhg.com/recipes/how-to/c...-vs-air-fryer/

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by Adelie

Using US countertop appliances you could build a system that draws 3600W maximum, 1800W for a 2 burner hob and 1800W for the convection oven.

To power them both at full power you would want a 4,500-,5000W pure sine wave inverter, induction really doesn’t like modified sine.

At full power the inverter would be drawing 4,000W assuming 90% efficiency, that’s 333amps. Keep in mind that once pans are preheated energy demand will throttle. The only demand that won’t throttle is boiling water for pasta, potato’s, or whatever. If you star Lt everything at the same time then in about 7-12min I would expect instantaneous demand to decrease.

We have a 3500W induction hob (2 elements) and an 1800W convection oven (Breville Smart Oven Pro) and a 5KW inverter (at 12V). We cannot run all three elements full power at the same time - basically any two at any power level, or both hob elements at low/mid power and the oven (which cycles to full power).



We run from the inverter when cooking, baking or roasting. We also use a toaster, kettle, and coffee machine (and an air still occasionally). It’s a big power draw but generally for a short period of time so not a big impact overall on our system. I did a set of ribs recently, which needed 8 hours at low power, and ran the generator for a few hours during the cooking. That use case is tough for off grid electric cooking.

The components are very inexpensive and can be considered disposable. Regarding a microwave, we decided against a microwave/convection oven as the cost to buy is much higher. Also, as live aboards we aren’t nearly as time poor as when we cruised part time and lived shore lives, so much less need for quick food.

The oven has 22l capacity to fit the propane oven cavity with decent air spaces to the sides and top. We tried a 28l model and it was too big. The oven is big enough for a 30cm/12” pizza, chicken roast (probably not a turkey though), or two loaves of bread.

[more]

Originally Posted by fxykty

We have a 3500W induction hob (2 elements) and an 1800W convection oven (Breville Smart Oven Pro) and a 5KW inverter (at 12V). We cannot run all three elements full power at the same time - basically any two at any power level, or both hob elements at low/mid power and the oven (which cycles to full power).


we decided against a microwave/convection oven as the cost to buy is much higher. Also, as live aboards we aren’t nearly as time poor as when we cruised part time and lived shore lives, so much less need for quick food.

how is expensive this is one of top pick
https://www.u-buy.com.au/product/TPE...f-function-and

but you can buy good under 200$

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by more

how is expensive this is one of top pick
https://www.u-buy.com.au/product/TPE...f-function-and

but you can buy good under 200$

I've been looking for a good convection microwave for my boat. Going by what's available in the US, convection oven / microwave combos pretty much all fall into one of these categories:

• Small internal volume
• Impractically wide mounting space required with the trim kit (27 - 30 inches, there aren't many 24 inch options)
• Expensive
• Can't be used for built in installation and needs to sit on a countertop (this one covers most of the reasonably sized, reasonably priced options)

The Toshiba unit you linked looks like a nice one, but it's not intended for built in installation. It's meant to sit on a counter. So mounting it securely on a boat and providing adequate space around it (and ventilation for that space) would likely be a challenge.

[PirateFoxy]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

I've been looking for a good convection microwave for my boat. Going by what's available in the US, convection oven / microwave combos pretty much all fall into one of these categories:

• Small internal volume
• Impractically wide mounting space required with the trim kit (27 - 30 inches, there aren't many 24 inch options)
• Expensive
• Can't be used for built in installation and needs to sit on a countertop (this one covers most of the reasonably sized, reasonably priced options)

The Toshiba unit you linked looks like a nice one, but it's not intended for built in installation. It's meant to sit on a counter. So mounting it securely on a boat and providing adequate space around it (and ventilation for that space) would likely be a challenge.

Yep, that was our issue when looking at replacements for the RV. The one that came with the RV ended up being impractically small internally for anything I’d actually want an oven for, so any replacement that fit in the space would’ve had the same issue. We decided it wasn’t worth the expense. Maybe if your primary meal source was microwave-baked-potato it’d be worth it anyway.

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by kmacdonald

Is going all electric supposed to prove something? Isn't it like trying to force a square block in a round hole?

Depends on the vessel. Depends on goals.


Propane/butane ranges have a number of serious drawbacks. Let's review them:

1. Total cost of ownership for a safe installation, including gas detectors, solenoid valve, regulator, cylinders, cylinder locker, piping, all of which require maintenance and replacement at regular intervals. In some countries a periodic inspection is required
2. Water vapor given off as a combustion product while in use, posing humidity problems when cooking while buttoned up in bad weather
3. More heat emitted into the galley compared to electric, a problem in hot weather
4. Fuel logistics problems due to a confluence of regulatory factors (some countries won't fill cylinders from other countries), commercial factors (some locations only offer bottle exchange and not fills), transportation problems (fuel available but not at the marina and you can't take fuel cylinders on a bus/taxi), fuel mix compatibility (propane/butane), and cylinder valve compatibility.
5. Generally slower heating performance when comparing the best available marine gas ranges to the best available electric appliances suitable for onboard use. Some cooks may not care
6. Generally fewer options for automated/unattended cooking e.g. bread machine, thermostatically controlled skillet. Again some cooks may not care
7. When comparing safety-oriented, high-quality installations, some people believe that an electric galley is safer overall though this is not universally accepted as true.

Gas has two advantages.

1. Typically you can run a gas galley for two months on 20# of gas with no dependence on shore power or impact on generator usage, number of solar panels needed, etc.
2. Some cooks can't stand electric ranges.

So there are vessels where electric makes sense. Either they have shore power when cooking, or are running a generator anyway, or have room for a sufficient number of solar panels to make it work.

[LoudMusic]

I installed this Samsung Convection Oven / Microwave as a drop in replacement to the propane oven on my catamaran and powered it from a Victron 3000w inverter. Worked like a champ.

https://www.samsung.com/us/home-appl...c12j8035ct-aa/

I also had 1200Ah of 12v lithium batteries and 2100w of solar, so an electric oven wasn't killing my power reserves.

If/when I do a boat again it will be 48v, more solar, more battery, more inverters, and NO PROPANE AND NO PETROL.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Jammer

Depends on the vessel. Depends on goals.


Propane/butane ranges have a number of serious drawbacks. Let's review them:

1. Total cost of ownership for a safe installation, including gas detectors, solenoid valve, regulator, cylinders, cylinder locker, piping, all of which require maintenance and replacement at regular intervals. In some countries a periodic inspection is required
2. Water vapor given off as a combustion product while in use, posing humidity problems when cooking while buttoned up in bad weather
3. More heat emitted into the galley compared to electric, a problem in hot weather
4. Fuel logistics problems due to a confluence of regulatory factors (some countries won't fill cylinders from other countries), commercial factors (some locations only offer bottle exchange and not fills), transportation problems (fuel available but not at the marina and you can't take fuel cylinders on a bus/taxi), fuel mix compatibility (propane/butane), and cylinder valve compatibility.
5. Generally slower heating performance when comparing the best available marine gas ranges to the best available electric appliances suitable for onboard use. Some cooks may not care
6. Generally fewer options for automated/unattended cooking e.g. bread machine, thermostatically controlled skillet. Again some cooks may not care
7. When comparing safety-oriented, high-quality installations, some people believe that an electric galley is safer overall though this is not universally accepted as true.

Gas has two advantages.

1. Typically you can run a gas galley for two months on 20# of gas with no dependence on shore power or impact on generator usage, number of solar panels needed, etc.
2. Some cooks can't stand electric ranges.

So there are vessels where electric makes sense. Either they have shore power when cooking, or are running a generator anyway, or have room for a sufficient number of solar panels to make it work.

A very good summary!


My only quibble is your Advantage No. 2 -- this applies to electric resistance cooking but not to induction. Never met a cook, including professional chefs, who had used both, who would ever prefer gas over induction in terms of control and cooking experience.

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

• Small internal volume
• Impractically wide mounting space required with the trim kit (27 - 30 inches, there aren't many 24 inch options)
• Expensive
• Can't be used for built in installation and needs to sit on a countertop (this one covers most of the reasonably sized, reasonably priced options)

On the previous boat we had a Sharp R820, big enough to do a turkey breast (for our Thanksgiving holiday one year while we were cursing the AICW).

That was installed in overhead cabinetry, with a vent fan back behind it somewhere. Never had excessive heat issues.

This current boat came with a Panasonic NN-T888 but that crapped out just as we arrived home from the Florida delivery. Installed in deep lower cabinetry, no vent fan (that I know of yet), no obvious heat issues while it was working. Replaced it with a Panasonic NN-CD87KS (the one with the "air fryer" add-on) but we haven't used it yet. In our case, there's plenty of room behind the installation to add a fan if necessary.

No trim kit needed with either.

I didn't find the costs prohibitive. (We had to replace the original R820 with a new R820 somewhere along the way; the panel lighting had crapped out on the original unit when we bought that boat, so even though it still worked OK it was almost impossible to figure out what the display was reading at any given time.)

-Chris

[more]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

I've been looking for a good convection microwave for my boat. Going by what's available in the US, convection oven / microwave combos pretty much all fall into one of these categories:

• Small internal volume
• Impractically wide mounting space required with the trim kit (27 - 30 inches, there aren't many 24 inch options)
• Expensive
• Can't be used for built in installation and needs to sit on a countertop (this one covers most of the reasonably sized, reasonably priced options)

The Toshiba unit you linked looks like a nice one, but it's not intended for built in installation. It's meant to sit on a counter. So mounting it securely on a boat and providing adequate space around it (and ventilation for that space) would likely be a challenge.

https://productz.com/en/amica-ammb44e1gci/p/rPllr
is this good for you 44 liter xx galon

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by ranger42c

On the previous boat we had a Sharp R820, big enough to do a turkey breast (for our Thanksgiving holiday one year while we were cursing the AICW).

That was installed in overhead cabinetry, with a vent fan back behind it somewhere. Never had excessive heat issues.

This current boat came with a Panasonic NN-T888 but that crapped out just as we arrived home from the Florida delivery. Installed in deep lower cabinetry, no vent fan (that I know of yet), no obvious heat issues while it was working. Replaced it with a Panasonic NN-CD87KS (the one with the "air fryer" add-on) but we haven't used it yet. In our case, there's plenty of room behind the installation to add a fan if necessary.

No trim kit needed with either.

I didn't find the costs prohibitive. (We had to replace the original R820 with a new R820 somewhere along the way; the panel lighting had crapped out on the original unit when we bought that boat, so even though it still worked OK it was almost impossible to figure out what the display was reading at any given time.)

-Chris

Out of curiosity, how was the mounting handled with no trim kit? Or was the microwave free-floating in the cabinet?

For options for my boat, I've found a few:

• The Samsung mentioned a few posts ago, but I'd either have to modify the trim kit or figure out how best to install it without one (it only has a 30" trim kit, I don't have that much space)
• The Panasonic NN-CD87KS (more expensive than the Samsung, but has a 24" trim kit available)
• Z-line MWO-24
• Bosch 500 series 24" convection microwave

The last 2 are significantly more expensive, but also larger internal volume (1.6 cu ft vs 1.2). And they're meant for direct cabinet mounting without a trim kit (and would be a good fit in the space I've got). Realistically, the Bosch is too expensive, so unless I can find a good way to mount the Samsung, for my boat it would be a contest between the Panasonic and the Z-line.

[Statistical]

Originally Posted by Jammer

Depends on the vessel. Depends on goals.


Propane/butane ranges have a number of serious drawbacks. Let's review them:

Good comparison.

Another disadvantage of propane would be cleanup. It is one of the nicest things about an induction cooktop. Let it cool and then wipe the completely flat sealed surface with a rag.

I think a lot of people overestimate the energy required for a cooktop. At one time almost no modest sized sailboats had electric refrigeration either. You either used a belt driven cold plate or the fridge ran on electricity. Running it off battery power wasn't considered viable. Today belt driven or propane powered refrigeration is rare. Still out there but far from common.

Daily Ah required for induction cooktop is roughly comparable to refrigeration. It is something one has to plan for but it isn't an impossible task.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Statistical

. . . Daily Ah required for induction cooktop is roughly comparable to refrigeration. It is something one has to plan for but it isn't an impossible task.

It depends very much on the kind of cooking you do. For the kind of cooking we do, your analysis is spot on. Might not be true however for someone doing a lot of boiling of large pots of stuff.

Frying stuff uses very little power.

I was frankly amazed at how much less power we used with induction. I had a resistance hot plate which I had for backup/supplement to the gas system, which got a lot of use. I had never used induction, so didn't know any better. The ceramic top of the hot plate got broken one day in a lively seaway. Replaced with induction. Suitably amazed at how much less power it used, suddenly viable for cooking off batteries when needed.


Another thing I was surprised about is that 90% of meals can be cooked on a single induction plate. Even coming from four-burner gas stove. It turned out to be vastly more useful than I expected. Cheap NuWave induction plate.